Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

[Guest]

Do we need Bailiffs Anyway?
Seems to me that everyone is talking about how to control the Bailiff industry; who is going to regulate and what those regulations should be. I thought it was about time someone asked the above question. Hopefully someone will give me an argument because I think the answer is no.
The argument in favour of them usually runs along the lines that we have always had bailiffs they are part of our culture, a necessary in order to collect debts.
Well we used to have debtors prison as well didn’t we. There are much more efficient way of collecting money off people, ways that do not reduce the amount received by fees and charges,perhaps ways that dont involve bullying and intimiation.
Attachment of earnings, deductions from benefits for example and many more are far more efficient and cost effective methods.
Bailliffs sieze goods that rarely cover the costs that they themselves impose, seems to me like an exercise in futility.
A good friend of mine Phil Evens wrote this to me whilst we were fighting the TCE bill.
"We needed something more constructive than indiscriminate bailiff law to increase the amount of central and local government revenue; we needed something more imaginative than a few incentives bolted on to the existing tangle of debt management and debt relief measures What we need is a comprehensive review that reaches the far ends of the credit-debt spectrum. One that considers the provisions of goods, services and credit, the plethora of fines and penalties – and the difficult end of enforcement. A review that is pragmatic about how we use money today."
Times have moved on since the bailiff first commenced his trade, it is now time to look at the whole debt collection industry and root out the dinosaurs. Bailiffs are I think an excellent place to start.
The government won’t do it, too much vested interest, and to little imagination.
Peter

[labman]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

As with many aspects of British history I rather like the fact that the word 'bailiff' still exists and should continue to exist under medieval traditions of the word.

However, in terms of a method of enforcement, sadly you will not get much of an argument from me. I don't know that their demise would necessarily be top of my list though.

[Judge mental]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

Its an interesting thought Peter.

There probably is a need for court Bailiffs who enforce a legal judgement or determination, but I am having difficulty putting up any kind of defence for the private Bailiff given that despite a name that strikes fear into the unknowing, they actually serve no purpose other than to make a personal visit in an attempt to persuade a debtor to pay, with the added authority to sieze goods as a last resort. It is the practices they employ and powers they like people to think they have which give cause for so much debate.

The alternative methods of debt collection which you highlight are already available to Local authorities, but they still prefer to indiscriminately put a debt in the hands of a Bailiff at the first opportunity, so maybe the problem (and need for change) is not with the Bailiffs but with those who appoint them, afterall, if private Bailiffs weren't appointed they cannot possibly survive as a business.

I fear however, that until the general public is sufficiently informed about a Bailiffs (lack of) power and authority, Local Authorities will continue to allow Bailiffs to bully people out of money they dont have or cannot afford, it is not in their interest to promote any dilution to the perception of a Bailiff or his powers hence no willingness from Government to see things changed.

Stuart

[enaid]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

I think there is a place for bailiffs and I think there is a place for decent DCAs.
Sadly we find ourselves being financially abused by the very people we trusted to help us in these matters and are now coming to terms with the knowledge we do have rights and can use them to fight this abuse.
Even sadder is the fact that now we are getting to grips with using our rights to fight our corner and even win over the banks etc, a small majority are abusing these rights and trying to get out of paying their debts all together.
I think we have to hit the middle ground now, by this I mean those that can pay must, those that are struggling short term should be treated fairly and those that will never have a chance of paying (through legitimate reasons) should not.

[Guest]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

Hi
I think it a matter of changing the mind-set, we presume that we need bailiffs to enforce judgments, but why, I think it is just because they always have.
Perhaps fifty years ago it was necessary to physically approach someone in order to procure funds but no more. A couple of strokes on a computer keyboard are all that is needed in most cases.
Let’s not mince words here we are talking about extracting money from people by intimidation, is that acceptable? Remember that it makes no difference to the bailiff if they are visiting a rugby player or a little old lady with a dodgy heart.
We had this debate over on CAG with a bailiff when the TCE thing was going off, he said, I bet you would want the bailiff to call if it was your money. Well to be honest no I wouldn’t, I would want my money back that’s all. I think there is some kind of self-righteous revenge issue here; you heard it quite clearly in the TV program the other night, the way he referred to,” them”. This of course is always the case when people try to justify mistreating others, the denial of their humanity, easier to abuse people if you think of them as some kind of sub species.
I remember Harriet Harman standing up in the commons during the report stage of the bill to increase the entry powers of bailiffs, she was roundly applauded when she said that she would gladly kick in the door of someone who had cheated her out of her money, a couple of years later of course it turned out that they were all cheating us by fiddling their expenses, bloody hypocrites.
Starting to rant now I will shut up
Peter

[enaid]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

no don't shut up lol

I would love to know a way that people can be made to pay up (when they have no reason other than they wont).
We have all seen the County Court system fail.
Not sure the Attachment of Earnings is a great success.
So what do we have left?

[Guest]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

HI
Yes I heard the old can’t pay vs won’t pay argument on the TV the other night. Perhaps I am biased (well I know I am) but I have only ever seen bailiffs visiting people who have no money, I am sure that sometimes they call on affluent people who just refuse to pay, it is just that I have never come across it.
I used to enjoy working for the Credit Union( yes I know, yawn), and we regularly received heartfelt requests for emergency loans because the bailiff had taken the week’s food money and they could not afford to eat or put gas on the meter.
The bailiffs in reality just get whatever money they can, however they can, they don’t say, “are you sure you will be alright this week love if you give me this money” they just take it.
Yes I know bills have to be paid but my point is that by the time it gets down to the bailiff stage usually the ones that can pay have. So you end up with people extorting money out of debtors who are already on the bread line.
I don’t think anyone would say that all actions are justified in order to obtain repayment of a debt.
Peter

[enaid]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

IMHO the benefit system should be the borderline between can and wont, but only if the system is run properly and fairly and sadly I don't think it is at the moment.
I understand where you are coming from about bailiffs taking the last crumb from folks, but sadly it's only the folk who give a **** about how they get by and who pride themselves on providing for them and theirs that are affected, too many are in the thinking they can get away with anything and do.

[Guest]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

Hi
True it is usually the old frail or less savvy who suffer most. Unfortunately bailiffs will go for the easy target every time. And of course the debtor is not only saddled with paying the original debt but also their fees.
Peter

[labman]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

I can't agree Enaid because of the Poverty Trap. We are caught in this position and it often means that we really struggle to pay things, and sometimes can't.

We are not extravagant, we don't have loads of luxuries - our holiday this year was three days 30 minutes away from home. We don't borrow money, but we are, quite simply, very poor.

We're not ashamed of that and are not alone in that. It does mean though that sometimes we just cannot pay our bills because we have not got the money.

[enaid]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

My argument in a nutshell, people forced into poverty who would rather provide for themselves and their own as opposed to people who plead poverty for an easy ride and I know who I would vote to get rid of.

[labman]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

Assuming we'd vote the same way, I agree with you now. Less sympathy for the scroungers / spongers, but cut some slack for those who try their best.

I still think it was a very valid point made in post 3? where it was stated that local authorities chose bailiffs as their referred option. Recent experiences dictate that Local Authorities will lie and cheat just as much as bailiffs, perhaps this is why bailiffs are their chosen choice of collection enforcement.

Rather than say county court systems aren't working etc... efforts should be put into making those work rather than intimidating people into paying money they can't afford.

I know when I had bailiffs on knocking my front door and knew nothing about my rights, I and my family were absolutely terrified. We kept receiving dedmands for money we simply didn't have and had no way of getting. I would honestly rather have gone to jail for a while than have seen my family go through that.

[Guest]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

Hi
Yes the problem is that I have never met anyone who has, for instance chosen not to pay their council tax when they can afford to do so; I have met lots of people who have had to make the choice between for instance a new coat for one of the kids and paying it.
I hear a lot about the “wont pays” who are living the life of Riley at the cost of the hard working rate payer, and I am sure they exist; it is just that I have never actually met any.
Met lots of people who are struggling, I find it hard to believe that many would deliberately not pay their council tax or court fine, with all the trouble that this would bring if they had a choice.
If you accept that this may be the case even for just the majority of cases, then it makes the wont pay argument, nonsense and the bailiff’s justification of their job a lie. In my opinion what they do is place people under such stress that they will pay money they cannot afford often to the detriment of their health and wellbeing.
Peter

[Guest]

Re: Do we need Bailiffs anyway ?

THis is a section of a letter writen to me from Rev Paul NIchols in reference to the welfare reform bill, i think i shows the true position we are in today.

Housing benefit caps and the enforcement against poverty incomes in both work and unemployment, which were not the fault of the debtors, are enforced against diminishing statutory minimum incomes which have risen slower than the prices of food and fuel for the past five years. Adult unemployment benefits are £53.45 a week aged 18-25 and then £67.50 a week; there are 1.5 million claimants but 7.5 million adults officially in poverty.
The level of statutory minimum incomes has been set by British governments, unlike 11 other developed nations, without any reference to the minimum weekly cost essentials. Unemployment benefits were cut in April 2011 by the use of the slower rising CPI rather than the RPI, which itself had not kept up with the rising prices of essentials like food and fuel.

Poverty leads to unmanageable debt, to the draconian and dispiriting enforcement of rent, council tax and utility arrears, to the over use of bailiffs and eviction, the recovery of overpayments of benefits some of which are due to the errors of officials at jobcentres, HM Revenue and Customs and the local authorities. Disproportionate fines for poverty related offences like TV license and fare evasion, are also enforced with ferocity by the bailiffs for the magistrates courts. It all leads to panic borrowing at unregulated, and very high, interest rates from legal and illegal lenders.


Rev Paul Nicolson, Chair, Zacchaeus 2000 Trust.

In reality these are the people/debts the Bailffs are chasing for payment.


Peter