Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

[occams]

Hi all! Have been a lurker of this forum since my last PCN, and now have managed to get the bailiffs on my back for £650, which is going to kill me, since I can barely pay my rent for staying at university!

I'll try to keep my story summarised, advice would be a life-saver, since I'm at a loss in regards to what to do. My story is:

• PCN issued by council of Islington for parking in a bus stand (broken car, long 300 mile trip from wales, taxi drivers fixed my car, but I had to get to their office, PCN slapped on car)
• I sent in written evidence late by two months proving that I had a valid reason for stopping in that spot (due to leaking water tank), so my appeal was rejected. This I understand, it was my own fault.
• They did not contact me for around 6 months, and I suddenly found my car clamped in the early morning, no previous visit or letter from the bailiffs, nothing.
• I called them up, angered that the car was clamped and I had no idea it had moved to bailiffs. After a long discussion, I was told that I could put the case on hold by PATAS
• Islington contacted Newlyns, the clamp was removed.
• The appeal was rejected because I had given in evidence beyond the point of appeal. This made sense, as that was my fault.
• I ask the bailiffs for a breakdown of costs

They ask for:

1. £185 Debt
2. £11.20 First Letter
3. £20 Finance Check
4. £105 Enforcement Fee 1
5. £120 Enforcement Fee 2
6. £70 Levy Fee
7. £74 Visit Fee 2

Total: £585.20
Total with VAT: £655.24

They did not explain at that time what the Enforcement Fees 1 & 2 were, OR the Visit Fee dates, etc.

I then sent a Subject Access Request to them, and I recieved a reply about 5 days ago (so I really need to get this sorted or they will be over with an axe!)

Here is a summary of their reply to my Subject Access Request:

• They have enclosed template copies of the letters Newlyns apparently sent me (bullmanure), because they are "unable to back date letters" so they show the current date.
  • We NEVER recieved any letters from them. The first copy of anything was the sticker stuck to our clamped car
  
  

• I requested recordings of the telephone conversation, they said they hold no recordings as I didn't call the call centre during the enforcement of the warrant of execution. All calls to the bailiffs couldnt be recorded because of a lack of facilities
  • I did call them, both DIRECTLY (via a number that Islington gave me) and the bailiffs directly, LIES.
  
  

• They don't have copies of letters the bailiff apparently left at my address because they dont carry copying equipment and it is completed by hand
  • we recieved NO letters, the ONLY thing we got was that sticker AFTER clamping
  
  

In terms of the fees, this is their reasoning:

• Finance check: to ascertain if a vehicle can be sold at auction to discharge the Warrant of Execution
• Enforcement Fee 1: charge for the bailiff's attendance
• Enforcement Fee 2: charge for the commencement of the removal process, the seizure of your car
• Levy Fee: all vehicles are levied on prior to the removal process beginning
• All fees are subject to VAT

He then said that all bailiffs actions have been correct and fees raised in accordance with Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (certified Bailiffs) (Amendment) Regulations 2003.

He then threated that I should pay immediately as while there is an outstanding balance the bailiff enforcement action will continue and further fees may be incurred. They have an ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) van and if the car leaves the house address the car will be seized.

They also provided a page with dates and lines of information of what was done and when, looks like an internal document.
_____________________________

I am thinking,as I urgently need the car, to just pay the whole thing, and fight it tooth and nail after paying.

Is this a good idea, or stupid?

Scanned copies of anything can be provided, just ask!

Many, many thanks from the bottom of my heart for all help etc, this evil is keeping me awake and I may have to scrounge around to try to pay it off, but with the intention of paying some back to the people I borrow from once I take these liars and fraudsters to the courts.

[Judge mental]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

Hi occams.

Have you submitted an appeal to PATAS? you have 28 days from the time you were issued a notice of rejection of your appeal from the council.
if more than 28 days have passed you can still send in the appeal, with your reasons for the delay, it may still be heard.
The grounds of your appeal would be the vehicle had broken down therefore you was unable to proceed due to circumstances beyond your control.
Here is a link for the PATAS website, lots of info on there including how to appeal
http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/index.htm

In relation to the amounts demanded by the bailiff.
I believe a PCN in Islington is £120, you could ask the council why £185 has been transferred to the bailiffs.
The fees they can charge are in schedule 1 of the Enforcement of Road Traffic debts (certified bailiffs) regulations 1993, the 2003 amendments merely increase the amounts that can be charged for certain items.

The first letter charge, they will need to show they have sent the letter and it must advise you that the warrant is with the bailiffs and state the amount due.
Is there anything within the 'dates and lines of information' they have provided to show this
If the letter does not give those details they cannot impose the £11.20 fee.

They can only impose fees for a 'walking possession' (a levy on the vehicle but leave it in your possession) if they actually take possession, if you have not signed a walking possession agreement they do not have possession of the vehicle, you are within your rights to move it somewhere safe.
The bit about seizing it if it is removed from the house is bull.

Without a signed walking posession agreement the enforcement fees, levy fees and visit fees are charged unlawfully.

One other thing to note, a person (including a bailiff) can only immobilise a vehicle if they are licensed by the Security Industry Authority (SIA) under the Private Security Industry Act 2001.

My suggestions are to move your car, dont let the bailiffs into your home under any circumstances, appeal to PATAS, write a letter to the bailiffs advising them the matter has been referred to PATAS and quote the results of your research into their charges, invite them to revise their charges otherwise you will make a Form 4 complaint to the court which issued the bailiffs license. Send a copy of that letter to the council.

Others may be able to help you more.

Regards
Stuart

[Amy]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

The amount sent to the bailiffs would appear to be correct. A £120 PCN increases by 50% if not paid within 14 days, then a £5 court fee is added = £185.

The purpose of a SAR is to gain any and all information a company holds on an individual. It follows then, that if a company cannot provide any copies of requested correspondence because no records have been kept, then there is no proof that any letters were sent or that any visits were made. Therefore, a fee cannot be applied.

You need to point out to them that you were not asking for backdated correspondence, you were asking for the actual records that the letters was sent. What a backdated letter proves, I really have no idea, but it certainly appears that their system will not allow them to backdate correspondence and they would only need to backdate something because they don't actually have it.

Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated bailiffs) Regulations 1993

Bailiffs are certificated, they are not certified there is a difference. However, the fees are as follows:-

Where the sum demanded and due does not exceed £100 - the fee is £28
Where the sum demanded exceeds £100 - 28% on the first £200 and 5.5% on anything over £200

For attending to levy distress, but where the levy is not made - reasonable costs

It is the reasonable costs part that causes the most problems with fees, because the bailiffs believe this allows to charge what they like. This is not the case, but you will have to fight them if you want these fees reduced to something more sensible and I would suggest that a figure closer to £250 is what they should be charging.

[Judge mental]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

The amount sent to the bailiffs would appear to be correct. A £120 PCN increases by 50% if not paid within 14 days, then a £5 court fee is added = £185.

Its the other way around isnt it?
A PCN is reduced by 50% if it is paid within 14 days, they cannot increase a PCN.

It is possible there was costs of £65 added, I was only suggesting clarification from the council.

I would also suggest that the only fees they would be allowed to make is the attendance fee, there was no lawful enforcement or levy.

Stuart

[occams]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

Hi Stuart and Amy,

Thanks immensely for the early Sunday morning help! Just to clear out some details:

-I *think* I already applied via PATAS, after my car got clamped out of no where, I called up Islington and went nuts, they then said they would put me through to PATAS. My car was subsequently unclamped, but I recently recieved a reply from Northampton County Court saying leaving a "Witness Statement" to file was refused or something.

-INTERESTING FACT! in the original breakdown, they posted a £70 "Visit 2" fee, but in the latest one, there is NO visit fee. From this logic they probably lied about the initial visit (which did NOT happen) in the initial breakdown, but probably realised after the SARequest

-I did not sign anything at all from the Bailiffs, let alone a "walking possesion agreement"

-can they charge for the clamping and declamping? this seems to say they cannot, it must come from the levy: Drakes Group complaint, and that the charges are illegal

I will take the steps outlined by your help above:

1. send a letter to Newlyns AND the council explaining that the "enforcement fees" are illegal and it is interesting the "visit 2" fee has suddenly dissappeared
2. Ask them to revise the costs to the legal requirements, and REMOVE the £11 letter fee because they never sent the letter
3. Call them, mention to them that I am recording the conversation, and ask them if they have recieved my correspondance and if they have any questions
4. if they are adamant, I will send a form 4 complaint

I cannot tell you how much of a weight this takes off my mind, THANK YOU guys :reindeer:

[Amy]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

Its the other way around isnt it?
A PCN is reduced by 50% if it is paid within 14 days, they cannot increase a PCN.

If the charge is paid within 14 days then (in this instance) the charge would be reduced to £60, but if it is not paid within 14 days then the original charge (£120) stands and is then increased by 50%.

[occams]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

Hi guys!


Newlyns have not replied to my long letter (sent on the 14th of December) requesting for them to explain the costs, and reduce it to the level as required by law. Instead, they have sent the letter (dated 21st of December, which is strange, as we recieved it on the 28th-ish) asking me to pay even more, with no explanation, etc.

Should I disregard the letter, waiting for their reply to my letter, or do as it says and call them before they tow/clamp/take things from me?

I actually think the 700+ letter is a good thing, they keep changing the figures, out of think air, which I assume should ring bells for the Form 4 that I will be writing, in regards to fraud.

[occams]

Re: Help! Newlyn Bailiffs £655, post-Subject Access Request

Anyone have any thoughts on whether I should reply to them regarding the latest letter/call them?