The Council and Direct Debits

[LavenderRose]

Hiya, I need your help, again! lol
Does anyone know what the law states regarding councils and direct debit payments? Heres why I need to know. I work part time and get Tax Credits and Child Benefit, Housing Benefit and Council Tax reduction and I set up another Direct Debit in April with the council to pay my Council Tax. They have been taking £25 a month from my bank since April but yesterday I checked my bank to make sure my housing benefit had been paid in by the council. It had but I got the shock of my life because the same council had taken £188 out of my bank instead of the £25 we agreed. Not only was it my housing benefit they took but it more or less cleared my account out. Are they allowed to take what they want from your account when you have agreed a direct debit amount? I also have my 2010/11 bill which lists the payments at the bottom and they are all £25 a month for this year. I was so upset I started crying and had to go to the bank to stop the payment going out but it will be Tuesday before my account is credited again, ruining my bank holiday weekend as I cant shop or pay other bills. Two weeks before that I had the Tax Credits stop my money without warning saying I hadnt renewed when I had. I told them I had sent it back on the 12th. It took them less than a minute to check and reinstate my TC but I had to wait a week and stuggle all week before I got the payment. It is so frustrating that large organisations think they can do this to people on means tested benefits and dont seem to care about the consequences and the struggle people have as a result. I want to send the council a stern letter but I dont know what my rights are with this so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
LavenderRose :/

[enaid]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Hello Lavenderose,
These are the rules for DD
If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request.

If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society.

Dd they notify you at all they were taking this amount?

[leclerc]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Direct Debit Guarantee scheme covers this so the bank will have to refund the amount in full(as enaid has quoted the rules of the scheme above).

[LavenderRose]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

No they didnt notify me at all. The first I knew of it was when I went to my bank to check my housing benefit had been paid. They gave it me yesterday morning and took most of it back again. It was Saturday morning so I had to go to town to the main branch and ask them to recall the payment. They said they will but it will be Tuesday morning before they can do this and I have to phone the bank Tuesday to make sure it went thru ok. I wont be able to get the refund now as it is a bank holiday weekend and it will back in my account on Tuesday. It is so annoying that errors can happen causing people to struggle financially until the matter is resolved.
Thanks for the replies

[enaid]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Under the rules of the Direct Debit Scheme, should any money be taken in error, then the customer's bank or building society must, on request, make an IMMEDIATE refund to the customer's account. This is the Direct Debit Guarantee. This covers situations where the originator has not given the required advance notice regarding a change of amount or date. It also protects customers should an incorrect amount be debited or if a debit occurs earlier than the specified, agreed date, or in error.

[leclerc]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

That's right and the banks do have internal accounts that they can debit/credit on the same day. Is there any provision with the DD Guarantee scheme about working days?

[LavenderRose]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Im not sure Leclerc. When I ring the bank Tuesday morning to make sure they have done the recall I will ask why they didnt credit my account that morning under the Direct Debit scheme. I want to write a letter to the council for taking the wrong amount is there any acts or laws I can quote to make sure the know they are in the wrong and for it not to happen again. Cheers for all your comments, much appreciated.

LavenderRose

[WendyB]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Exactly same happpened to me once on the Friday of a bank hol weekend. The bank tried that with me too but I was adamant the refund should be immediate. Went home got my kids ( youngest was still in a pushchair) then lurked in the bank playing to the crowd. As it was nearly closing time and I refused to leave and enquired as to whether there would be tea making
facilities for the weekend, they put the money back
in my account!

[enaid]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Im not sure Leclerc. When I ring the bank Tuesday morning to make sure they have done the recall I will ask why they didnt credit my account that morning under the Direct Debit scheme. I want to write a letter to the council for taking the wrong amount is there any acts or laws I can quote to make sure the know they are in the wrong and for it not to happen again. Cheers for all your comments, much appreciated.

LavenderRose

I am not sure about laws and the such but I think you need to know why they took the amount they did and be assured that it will not happen again. I would stress that one of the reasons you pay by DD is because of the DD scheme and how it is supposed to protect the customer. In the case it failed and left you with very little money to last over the Bank Holiday weekend.

[ItWasn'tMe]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

DDs are mandated in law by the SI The Payment Services Regulations 2009.

Have a look at sections 63 and 64.

Did you check your bank's T&Cs to see what they say about incorrect amount in direct debits being taken. Why I mention the T&Cs is that because the minimum provisions set in 63(2) states that you are entitled to either a refund or refusal of a refund within 10 days if the initial authorisation did not specify an amount AND the amount taken out exceeded the amount that you would have expected to pay BUT the bank's T&Cs might be less stringent and allow refunds in either one of those circumstances or in less time. Also, there are other caveats mentioned in s 63(5) for example, if authorisation was given directly to the Bank to execute the DD, and information about the DD was provided or made available to you at least 4 weeks before the due date, then you might not be entitled to a refund.

For the future, it might just be better to setup a standing order of £25/month which has the notable difference that you are in charge of the amount going out and not the Council in this case. You will need the Council's bank account details and your council tax reference to set this up. Easy if you have online banking, if not, then you have to go into the branch to do it. Just make sure that you set the date of the SO at least 4 days before you are due so there is time for it to clear.

As advised previously, you will have to chase them on Tuesday morning but I am of the opinion that there is no point in quoting statutes to the Council because it won't strike a chord and in my way of thinking, a strongly worded letter with heart tugging lines would be more effective than a letter quoting chapter and verse of statute.

Good luck.

[Amethyst]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

If you have a Council Contact centre where you live you can just pay over the counter in cash. I do this, £27 on a Friday, if I don't have it, I don't pay it or pay some of it and make it up when I can. Even though I'm in a position now where I could pay through the bank by DD etc, I would rather cut my arm off than give control of my money to the banks / companys / council again.

[LavenderRose]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Thank you all so much for your comments and tomorrow I will check my T&C with the bank. I know now that even though it is a Saturday morning and they close at dinner I was still entitled to an immediate refund. WendyB your comments made me laugh that is a cracker. I`ll try that one myself if I find myself in this situation again. I do have online bankiing but I am going to do as Amethyst suggested and go to the council myself and pay my CT. I have cancelled the DD. If the T&C state I could have had a refund immediately the bank will get a letter as well as the council. Im sending my letter off tomorrow and as ItWasntMe put I am going to tell them how its ruined my bank hol weekend and left us struggling for food so I will post their response when I get it. I will also let you know what the council say about why they took the amount they did when they have been taking £25 a month since April. My council tax for the year is only just over £300 and i have no arrears.
This site is amazing and you are all amazing as I wouldnt have a clue about any of this so your input means a lot.
Thanks again

LavenderRose

[LavenderRose]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Hello everyone!
I received an email from the Council on Friday asking me to ring them regarding my complaint and they will ring me straight back. They said they have been trying to ring me although I have no record of missed calls. I will ring them Monday at work and let you know what they say.
I seem to be having a month of it as I need your advice on another matter. In one month I have had my Tax Credits not paid only to find they had stopped it by mistake, Ive had the wrong amount taken from my bank by the Council. I found out a month ago that Child Benefit had not been paying me for my son who is under 20 and still at college full time. I thought it stopped at 19 so I rang them and they reimbursed me within a week but this week they have only paid me for 2 children instead of 4 (so thats another phone call on Monday) and now this next problem. Its enough to send anyone potty! I will try to keep it brief.
Last year we moved to another Council area and I was receiving all the benefits I am receiving now including Council Tax and Housing Benefit. We then moved back to our old Council we claimed the usual benefits. About June of this year I received a letter from the Council we had just moved from to say that I had received an overpayment in Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit and that I had to pay it back. I wrote back and asked them to explain why I was over paid in 2009 and they said it was a change in my circumstances. Letters went back and forth for a while and the next thing bailiffs turned up. Luckily we werent in (not that I would have spoken to them) and they posted their usual paper threats. I rang the council back and although I wasnt satisfied I owed it I arranged to make payments to keep the bailiffs away while I carried on looking into it. The first payment they tried to take from my bank for CT they did the same as this Council and took £190 more than they should so I did the usual and stopped the payment. I got an apology in writing and an assurance it wouldnt happen again. The following week I was on annual leave to get a phone call from a member of Staff (who is also a friend thankfully) to say they had sent an attachment of earnings to my work place in my partners name and he doesnt even work there! I wrote again complaining of breach of Data Protection and I got a lame apology and they said they have no record of me setting up a payment arrangement. I wrote again saying I spoke to **** on the phone 4 times and I had a letter confirming the arrangement (which I have only just found). They are adamant no arrangement was made but also said the over payment was due to an increase in my Tax Credits payments last June. When I have checked back on my award ive found they have added a disabilit element for my son so my payments went up but I have never claimed for any disability or asked for any. They have added it by mistake and im quite shocked they have done this.
With this in mind ive realised that if it wasnt for the mistake of Tax Credits adding elements I havnt claimed for I would have still got the benefits from the old Council and I wouldnt have an over payment to pay back. Now I dont feel I should have to pay for someone elses mistake. The advice I need from you guys is:
Do I legally have to pay the over payment back to the Council.
Are Tax Credits liable for the mistake and what can I do about it.
Can the Council still recover the overpayment from me and ask me to claim it back from Tax Credits.
I will then receive an over payment from Tax Credits and because its their mistake can they make me pay it back.

Its quite a problem isnt it and I must admit ive never know anything like it. For so many government organisations to make so many mistakes, and these are only mine, its incredible.

Any advice would be so appreciated as I dont feel I can do this without you and any ideas for letter writing would be good too.

Thanks
LavenderRose

[enaid]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

Hello Lavender, blimey thats seems very complex to me. If it is all todo with the last council i think I would be tempted to SAR them and see everything that they have on you and everything that has gone on be it mistake or not.
If as you say there may not be an overpayment as mistakes have been made then it would be easier to sort out.
just my thougths on this as it lal needs clarifying as it seems so many depts are involved.
enaid x

[LavenderRose]

Re: The Council and Direct Debits

The last council have given me a break down of dates i was entitled to CT/HB payments and the amounts but they say between June 09 and Aug 09 I wasnt entitled to any as my Tax Credits payments had increased. They had increased due to Tax Credits adding a disability claim to my award that I didnt ask for around the renewal time. If they hadnt done that I would still have got the same CT/HB and I woudnt have an over payment from them. Basically I need to know whos to blame, can I get the CT/HB over payment squashed and would I need to pay TC the over payment of the disability back. I know its really confusing but I have a feeling they are both just going to blame each other and I will end up having to pay both. Thanks for the advice Enaid and if you can think of any more id appreciate it.
Thanks
LavenderRose :confused2: