Jacobs / Council Tax

[worried by bailiff]

I was visited by XXXXX on the 3rd Feb 2010 regarding payment of outstanding council tax.

The bailiffs did not provide any written authorisation that they were acting on behalf of the council. Their approach was to bully me into an attempt to pay, and or an attempt at a levy.

I mentioned that I have been paying the council direct, and will continue to do so, and their response was that they were in possession of a warrant to enter my house by any means and would take goods and I would have further fees to pay.
At this point, not knowing the procedure and my rights, I asked the bailiff to leave my premises. The bailiff handed me a Notice of Attendance to Seize Goods, with amounts of £1238.96 & £702.34.

I explained that I have been paying the council direct, and that these amounts were incorrect. xxxxx told me, that if you want to go head to head, then we will do.

I asked xxxxxx what the outstanding fees were for, and xxxxxx showed me a piece of paper (which he mentioned was the warrant of execution), claiming the fees were £100.00 for an attendance fee, and £60.00 for a waiting charge.

I explained that as far as I am aware, the only fees outstanding are £24.50 & £18.00. He asked where I got my information from, and when I mentioned, the National Debt line, he said,
"they are all a load of W£^%nkers, and dont know anything."

I asked xxxxx if I could please have a copy of this warrant of execution, in order for me to see the details down, he refused this request

. I asked xxxxx if I could borrow his pen, whilst I wrote the details down. Again he refused this request.

I then asked xxxxx to wait outside the locked gate, in order for me to enter my premises, retrieve a pen, and then allow me to write the details down.

As soon as my back was turned xxxxxx pushed the gate open, and claimed he had now gained peaceful access to my premises, and that he could now do a levy of any and all items.

He would not stay where he was, claiming that it had been a long drive, and needed to stretch his legs, therefore followed me down to the workshop at hte end of the garden, where I work from, where he said, now I have levied all these items, and they are now mine.

Any attempt at removal of the said items, will mean that I have broken the law.

The items in question, are all for my business. They are not used for personal use. I.e. computer related, also my customers computers. xxxxxx then claimed, that I needed to prove that the items belonged to me, and not my customers. Else he would be back, and remove all the said items.

The Notice of Seizure of Goods and Inventory state that the inventory is

Several Computers, with towers and screens, tables, chairs, work desk, lawn mower.

This to me is not a full levy. Several computers with towers and screens could mean any number of computers and towers. The lawn mower mentioned, is not on public view, not even by looking through a window, as it is kept in a different locked shed. Therefore I am of the opinion that this levy is invalid, and null and void.

xxxxx eventually left the premises, after many polite requests to leave, and said he had ordered a locksmith to break into my house, and also a van to remove items; and these were on the way. Costs of which I would also incur.

xxxxxx claims, that I owe the sum of £ £1941.30., when according to the council's website, the actual amount now outstanding is £1382.80. 2008/9's balance outstanding is £374.09, not the £702.34 as claimed, and 2009/10's balance is £1008.71 and not the £1238.96 as claimed.

These charges simply do not add up to me, and I am now worried, that because, he claims he has now gained peaceful access to my premises, he will come back at some later stage anad remove everything from the worksgop, (including my customers laptops, and desktops). Can he, or someone else come and actually remove these items?


Is there anything else I can do to get this person off my back, as we are continuing to pay the council direct via online payment, even though they claim we need to pay the bailiff, and not the council.

Any help would be most appreciated.
Thansk for your time
Worried by Bailiff

[Amy]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Bailiffs are strictly prohibited from pushing past you in order to enter your premises. You specifically told him to stay where he was and he ignored you.

I would complain about him immediately.

Have a read here Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles and also check to see if he is certificated Certificated Bailiff Register - Legal Beagles

[Guest]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Rather unsurprisingly, the bailiff lied to you.

Read the guide at the following link in full and you will understand a great deal more about what they can and cannot do. Gaining peaceful entry is not following you, uninvited, to your workshop and no, they cannot take anything related to how you make your living, in particular items that are not yours, such as customers' property.

Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles

You should also write a letter to your local authority detailing the conduct of the bailiff in particular with regard to the “National Standard for Enforcement Agents” issued by the Department of Constitutional Affairs and with regard to protected goods according to the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Reg 45(1A).

In your letter you should include the fact that, since the bailiffs are acting as agents of the council, then the council are equally culpable and liable for their conduct and that a charge of fraud against the bailiff is also a charge of fraud against the council. Inform them that you will not hesitate to involve the Local Government Ombudsman, should it prove necessary.

This link covers the issue of fraud Lords Hansard text for 20 Apr 200720 Apr 2007 (pt 0001) and states quite clearly that a bailiff who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

Make sure you send a copy of your council letter to the bailiff company along with a Subject Access Request in order that you may see how they have calculated their fees, details of this are in the Bailiff Guide, in the first link above.

[worried by bailiff]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Thanks for the helpful advice.. I have checked the register, and he is not shown as being on there.. but that could simply be a glitch with the site. So a call is in order I think.

Strongly worded letters will be sent today 1st Class, to both jacobs, and the local council, and I will keep you informed of any progress.

I can now breathe a slgh of relief, in knowing that he is unable to enter the workshop uninvied, and remove my customers items.

Do I not need to do a statutory declaration or similar?, to show the items are for work purposes only, and the other pc's etc belong to my customers?

thanks again
worried

[Amy]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Do I not need to do a statutory declaration or similar?, to show the items are for work purposes only, and the other pc's etc belong to my customers?

No, unless you do this at a court house then it will cost you around £5, but this is not the point. The bailiff's levy is invalid because, as above, he has not gained peaceful entry.

[worried by bailiff]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Hi everyone, Ive just had the sar details back off jacobs.

Basically, they are..

mr b made his first visit to your property on the 27th jan 2010, unable to meet with you, he left correspondence advisiing of his attendance and asking you to contact him. as he did not receive any communication from you after thsi visit, he reattended on the 3rd feb 2010.

(I did contact him on the 27th jan, from my mobile, logs can prove this if needed).

we have spoken to mr b regarding the contents of your correspondance relating to the above visit, and his version of events differs somewhat to yours (which it would naturally).
he confirms that on knocking on your front door, he was called round the back of the property. he walked through your open gate gaining peaceful entry to your garden.

(again this is a lie, as the gate is always bolted, also there was some to-ing and fro-ing during this time between us, with him one side of the gate, and me the other)

mr b confirmed who you were, and advised who he was and the reason for his visit. on being advised that you had been paying the local authority and would continue to do so, he told you correctly that they had instruscted us to collect the balance and so payment must be made to him now.

mr b cofirms that you did not ask for written authorisation from the council, but did ask for a copy of the liability orders. our bailiff advised that he was unable to supply you with a copy. this is correct, only hte council can supply you with this paperwork.

( I asked for a copy of the paperwork, showing the figures of £100, and £60, i didnt know this was the liability order)

they go on to mention about the pen bit..

you advised mr b that if he did not leave your premises you would call the police. mr b told you this was fine, however they would only attend if it was a breach of the peace and in this instance it was not. you then told mr b to do what he wanted (as if)

mr b noticed that there were 2 sheds in teh garden, both of which were open. he proceeded to levy on items that were stored inside. in relation to your comments regarding the levy being null and void, we do nto agree. however even if wer did, the levy woudl still be valid, as would the costs incurred due to the fact that we have levied on other items in addition to those you query. ( No mention of any other items other that what was written on the levy form!)

our bailiff is correct to list goods were ownership is disputed unless documentary evidence is forthcoming. shoudl 3rd party ownership be forthcoming then the items would be removed from the inventory. therefore our bailiff was correct to request this documentation.

blah blah.. he has not returned the accounts to the office, and i am to contact hte said office, within the next 7 daus..

now for the figures...

22.07.09 debt £849.84 vat 0.00 remitted 400.00 vat C / D No vat Remitted vat 0.00
26.08.09 visit fee 1 £24.50 vat £3.68 remitted 0.00 client remitted vat 0.00
28.08.09 visit fee 2 £18.00 vat £2.70 rest as above
03.02.10 attendance / van £100.00 vat £17.50 same as above
03.02.10 levy fee £50.00 vat £8.75 same as above
05.02.10 data protection fee £10.00 vat £1.75 same as above

payments
21.10.09 250 to client 250 fees 0.00
15.12.09 75 client 75 fees 0.00
15.12.09 75 client 75 fees 0.00
5.02.10 waiting 10.00 client 0.00 fees 0.00

they have also missed off a payment on the 27th jan for another 150 to come off this years figures.


thats about it.. is there anything else i can do?

thanks again all
wbb

[Amy]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Yes, details to follow (I have to leave the office for a while).

Essentially, your complaint still stands as the levy is invalid no matter what they say.

Plus:-
VAT for recovery of council tax = fraud
Data Protection Fee (did you send this fee with your letter) VAT = fraud
Other than the first and second visit fees, no other fees are correct.

[worried by bailiff]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

thanks amy

re dpf fee, yes i sent a business chq with the sar request.

speak soon

wbf
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Also looking at their fee page, there seems to be an irregularity..

debt 849.84
costs 0.00
fees 202.50
vat 1.75
total 1054.09
paid 410.00
bal 644.09
o/s fees 204.25

ive had a quick look at their fees, and it seems like the vat is included within their fees, as its the only way the figures could add up. the only difference being the 1.75 which is the dpf fee.

also my bad previous post, he has returned the file to the office.. sorry for all the typo's earlier, in my haste at getting the post done, i didnt check it all properly..

[Guest]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

In relation to the van fee and levy fee, these in my opinion, are fraudulent and should be challenged.

At all material times, the bailiff was attending to collect money, not goods and in the absence of a valid, signed levy or walking possession order, that cannot change.

In situations where charges for a van (that has legitimately attended) are raised, the cost of the van must be correct. This is because a van will almost certainly be used more than once on any given day therefore the charge for the van should be divided between all those visited on that day. Furthermore and as above, it should be noted that unless a valid, legal and signed Levy or Order for Walking Possession has already been obtained, then the Bailiffs are attending to collect money and not goods and therefore the attendance of a van is not a matter that the alleged debtor should be obliged to pay for.

Finally and rather tiresomely, they have lied to you again with regard to what they are allowed to levy on.

Strictly speaking, the onus is on the debtor to prove ownership of goods, however where it is blindingly obvious that the goods are not the property of the debtor, common sense must prevail. This is covered to some extent by the fact that there is a formula for calculating the scale of fees that may be charged and for the bailiff to charge fees that have not been “actually and necessarily” incurred and are unreasonable and disproportionate to the amount of the debt being collected is de facto unlawful and actionable. To simply note down anything in sight is clearly at best dishonest and at worst a deliberate and fraudulent ploy in order to increase the fees that may be charged.

[worried by bailiff]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Hi again, I have been sending emails back and forth from my local authority. Upshot being, they have put the account on hold with jacobs for a period of 30 days.

I initially sent this letter off to the council.

Dear xxxx

I am writing to you detailing the conduct of the bailiff in particular with regard to the “National Standard for Enforcement Agents” issued by the Department of Constitutional Affairs and with regard to protected goods according to the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Reg 45(1A).

As the bailiffs are acting as agents of the council, then the council are equally culpable and liable for their conduct and that a charge of fraud against the bailiff is also a charge of fraud against the council..

This link covers the issue of fraud Lords Hansard text for 20 Apr 200720 Apr 2007 (pt 0001) and states quite clearly that a bailiff who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

I am still yet to receive a reply off Jacobs regarding the additional fees as mentioned in the earlier email to you. I would appreciate it if, you would please chase up Jacobs, and reply as a matter of urgency.

I have asked Jacobs for a full detailed listing of the account, and have received a letter off them, which states the following.

"Mr bishop noticed that there were two shed in the garden, both of which were open. He proceeded to levy on items that were stored inside. in relation to your comments regarding the levy being null and void, we do not agree. however, even if we did, the levy would still be valid as would the costs incurred due to the fact that we have levied on other items in addition to those you query.

our bailiff is correct to list goods were ownership is disputed unless documentary evidence is forthcoming. should third party ownership be forthcoming then the items would be removed from the inventory. therefore our bailiff was correct to request this documentation."

There are actually, three sheds in the garden, together with the garage, which is my working premises. All 3 sheds, are never open, as they are either bolted, or padlocked at all times. The bailiff concerned, on the unlawful levy notice, has put down the following items.

"Several computers with towers, and screens, tables, chairs, work desk, lawnmower."

The list of everything up to the lawnmower, is all for business use, which contravenes the council tax regulation 45 (1a), such tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment as are necessary to the debtor for use personally be him in his employment, business or vocation.

I told the bailiff concerned about this, and was told that 'its all mine now, nothing can be moved, as I have levied on it all." Surely, this cannot be done...

The lawnmower mentioned, is in one of the sheds, which is locked and bolted, and cannot be seen from the window. We actually have a rather large garden, which most of it is lawn, therefore can only presume the bailiff thought we must have a lawnmower, and put it down as a matter of course.

Strictly speaking, the onus is on the me to prove ownership of goods, however where it is blindingly obvious that the goods are not the property of the debtor, common sense must prevail. This is covered to some extent by the fact that there is a formula for calculating the scale of fees that may be charged and for the bailiff to charge fees that have not been “actually and necessarily” incurred and are unreasonable and disproportionate to the amount of the debt being collected is de facto unlawful and actionable. To simply note down anything in sight is clearly at best dishonest and at worst a deliberate and fraudulent ploy in order to increase the fees that may be charged.



Also where it is stated that they "have levied on other items, in addition to those you query". Could you please inform me as to what they have actually levied on previously as no bailiff has ever entered my property, done a levy, nor left any notice of such. Therefore the costs incurred have to be false. Inside the notes, there is NO notice of a previous levy being mentioned. On this occasion, the bailiff came through a bolted gate, whilst my back was turned, as I went inside my property to retrieve a pen.

The bailiff mentioned there were additional fees of £100 attendance fee, and also a £60 waiting fee. He showed me a piece of paper, in which I could not locate my details on, therefore could not ascertain whether or not, this was in fact a true cost of fees. But even so, these fees are unlawful.


In relation to the van fee and levy fee, these in my opinion, are fraudulent and therefore I am challenging them.

At all material times, the bailiff was attending to collect money, not goods and in the absence of a valid, signed levy or walking possession order, that cannot change. I have never, nor will ever sign a levy or a walking possession order.

In situations where charges for a van (that has legitimately attended) are raised, the cost of the van must be correct. This is because a van will almost certainly be used more than once on any given day therefore the charge for the van should be divided between all those visited on that day. Furthermore and as above, it should be noted that unless a valid, legal and signed Levy or Order for Walking Possession has already been obtained, then the Bailiffs are attending to collect money and not goods and therefore the attendance of a van is not a matter that I should be obliged to pay for.

I have also asked, for a full explanation as to why the amounts claimed to be owed appear to be far higher that what is exactly owed.

Namely, according to the councils website, the total amount outstanding as at the time mentioned was £1382.80
2008/9's outstanding balance is £299.84, and not the £702.34 as claimed. A major difference of some £402.50
2009/10's outstanding balance is £1082.96, and not the £1238.96 as claimed. Again a major difference of £151.00.

Why is there such a difference of £553.50, when the maximum they can charge is £42.50?. I have asked for details of the differences, and have not yet received any reply.

On the statement for 2008/9's account direct from the bailiffs, it shows the following.

Debt 849.84
costs 0.00
fees 202.50
vat 1.75
total 1054.09
paid 410.
balance 644.09

Fees
22.07.09 Debt 849.84
26.08.09 visit 1 fee 24.50
28.08.09 visit 2 fee 18.00
03.02.10 attendance / van 100.00
03.02.10 levy fee 50.00
05.02.10 data protection fee 10.00

Payments
21.10 £250.00
15.12 £75.00
15.12 £75.00
5.2.10 £10.00

There is no mention of the payment of January of £150.00, also nowhere does it state the £60 waiting fee, is this a ploy off Jacobs to retrieve yet more money?

The Actual debt started off at £849.84. Since this time, I have paid off £550.00. An additional payment of £125.00 has been made this morning. Making the balance outstanding as of today's date £174.84 Adding on their charges the debt outstanding is £217.34. Which will be cleared within the next 2 months.

2009/10's Account. Balance o/s is 1082.96 according to Jacobs. Yet according to the notices received off them, they want £1082.96 + costs. What costs are these, as there is nothing mentioned on their statements, also they cannot charge fees on separate accounts, if chasing at the same time.

I look forward to receiving your reply at the earliest convienience, and hope you will do a full investigation into these serious matters of overcharging, and unlawful fees. I would appreciate it under the circumstances, if you would retrieve the account back off Jacobs, and allow me to continue paying my council tax online, as I have been doing. There is nothing in law, which states that I have to pay the bailiffs, only that I have to pay the council tax. I will pay the bailiffs actual fees of £42.50, when the account for 2008/9 is fully cleared as mentioned previously. This will be done via a cheque direct to Jacobs. No other form of payment will be made to them in any other manner. If required I have no hesitation to involve the Local Government Ombudsman should it prove necessary.

Kind regards

Email received off the council..

Hello xxxx.

Thank you your email.

As your complaint is regarding Jacobs, I have forward your email onto them so they will respond to you direct.
I have asked them to address the issues to your questions that you haven't had a response to.
Also I asked them to comment on the issue regarding additional fees.

Regards
xxxx


Reply back..


Hello xxx

Thank you for your recent email. I await the details requested from Jacobs, before I take this matter any further. I would appreciate it, if you would please put a hold on any further visits from Jacobs, whilst this formal complaint is on going; alternatively, please recall the file from Jacobs, and I will continue to pay the council direct via the online payment system.

Kind regards

xxx


Back again...


Hello xxx.....
A 30 day hold has been put on your account whilst Jacobs are dealing with this.

Regards
xxx


Then this morning, I receive a letter off Jacobs with the following..


Just to let you know, that I have received a letter off Jacobs, regarding offical complaint as follows.

We have been advised by the local authority that you beleive we have not addressed your query regarding costs on teh above premises.

we confirm that a first visit was made to your property on the 26th aug 09 incurring a charge of £24.50. As there was no response he reattended on the 28th aug 09 and a further charge of £18.00 was raised.

As advised in our previous correspondence Mr Bishop then attended the premises on teh 3rd February 2010 and levied at the property. A charge of £50 was incurred and as our Bailiff was attending with a view to removing assets an Enforcement Fee of £100 was incurred.

We confirm that the costs incurred on your account are in accordance with legislation and you are liable for them.

The account is currently on hold following the Local Authority instructions and we await further contact from them regarding the next course of action.


From this, I am reading it, as all they are charging for is the £42.50, which they are allowed to charge. But, they are adament regarding the levy, and enforcement fee.

As I have already told them the items they have 'levied' on are purely for business, apart from the lawn mower, and have asked for proof of a earlier levy in which they could take assets, and have not received a thing, what could I do next??


I have proof, of the figures shown from their notices etc, but they are all hand written.. not sure if that makes a difference or not.

It's almost as if, they think, if we put this figure down, then joe bloggs, will pay it, and not question a thing.. how wrong they are..

thanks for your time, I really want to get these guys out of my hair finaly, and do all I can to bring them down to earth..

What if anything could I do next?

thanks again

Worried

[David-G1ZQC]

Re: Jacobs / Council Tax

Hi.
I too have had dealings of fraud with jacobs.
Jacobs bailiffs and fraud - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum
They have tried to levy without gaining entry and charged £110 for a van they could never have sent.
Tricky B"£$%s aren't they.
David in Lincolnshire.