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Hello,
I would like to gather thoughts on an interesting situation that took place last summer.
I posted this on mumsnet but basically got heckled with "if you paid your bills you wouldn't have this issue" - "bailiffs don't care, none of this matters, you just need to pay" - but circumstances change for people regularly. Anyway, I hope someone might be able to give me some guidance and advice, which would be much appreciated.
I left my home where I rented a room in a shared house on 16th June 2023 to travel up to an airport I wouldn't have been able to get to if setting off in the morning of the 17th for a 6am flight.
My trip was for 5-6 weeks.
On 17th July 2023, I received a whatsapp message from one of the other tenants in the property, with a photo of a printed, hand finished letter, from an enforcement agent. This is attached with private info blocked out.
I asked why they opened my personal mail, they said they didn't, and that it was posted like that.
I immediately, whilst recording the call, phoned the agent who's mobile and name was on the letter.
I gave the reference number and address, confirmed my name and asked...
"I would like to know why you posted a letter through the door without an envelope, disclosing my personal private matters to people I live with that I am in no way related to".
His response was "It's a single address, that's why, so, what are you going to do about paying this?"
He said he came because I ignored their previous letter. The original letter was posted on a date that I would not have been in the country to receive it.
I said I wanted to get back home, look at all my letters, correspondence, and that I will make contact once I have had a chance to, as I was abroad and couldn't do that.
He said "being abroad does not stop you from making a payment".
The interesting thing is that the council who instructed them had received payments earlier that year, and I had contacted them to ask them to explain a £100 charge that was added over Christmas and New Year because I missed the payment by 6 days, paying it the day I returned to the UK after 3 weeks away.
They didn't reply.
The agent told me if I do not make payment or have the council hold the enforcement by Friday (4 days after), he would get a warrant issued for my arrest upon return to the UK. These were the final words before he ended he call.
Quite a serious threat, I would say.
So, this letter.
It stated my name and address, of course, others in the property knew this anyway, but it disclosed an amount of money outstanding, who to, their company and threats to revisit to remove goods or collect the money in full.
This letter had no date filled in. It had written by hand the total amount to recover, leaving blank the section which says "including an enforcement fee of £......".
I believe letters of this nature should be correct, clear and understandable, of which this is not.
Paragraph 52. Taking control of goods: National Standards (Ministry of Justice)
52. Enforcement agents should, so far as it is practical, avoid disclosing the purpose of their visit to anyone other than the debtor or a third party nominated by the debtor, for example an advice agency representative. Where the debtor is not seen, the relevant documents must be left at the address in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.
The agent had a pen, but surely, he should have, or been supplied with envelopes? If not, imagine how many others he has disclosed private information to.
I called the enforcement office to complain about this, they said the agent said he did post it with an envelope (not knowing I recorded the call and had evidence contradicting this).
I managed to contact the council and get this stopped, £100 fee removed, and the amount emailed to me that was correct, but upon returning to the UK, the mood towards me changed, I felt alone and not welcome in communal spaces in the property, and those living there were different around me than before. Before we were having a lot of laughs, cooking together etc. Due to my previous history of agoraphobia, I had to leave and find alternative accommodation to avoid a serious situation developing surrounding my mental health. Within days, I was gone, without an address, renting rooms on booking.com and airbnb.com temporarily, whilst initially staying with a friend just north of Camden in London for a few nights to help me.
My circumstances changed, my anxiety increased and I could not deal with nor afford any repayments to the council, nor could I deal with taking action against the enforcement agent.
27th March 2024, I get an email from the same agent, with the enforcement instructed by the council for them to collect, stating words "So far,your lack of response has been treated as an oversight, but now it will be considered an active choice.".
I immediately contact them by email, this time providing all of my evidence, including the recording of the admission no envelope was use, the letter posted, references to Paragraph 52, my own threats of reporting them to the ICO, CIVEA, UKAS, the council they are trying to collect from and more.
So, I gave a figure for settlement without legal interception, and stated if not settled by this date, it would be £100 per day on top.
Wednesday 3rd April they reply saying they have moved this to stage 2 along with their complaints procedure, which says within 7 days provide an outcome and conclusion and a decision for this.
They also emailed saying they expect to resolve this by end of Monday 8th April 2023 (wrong year!).
Despite my calls to speak to the person dealing with it several times, and them being in the office but "unavailable to speak", at exactly to the minute 5pm I get an email saying due to the Easter holidays, they have been unable to speak with certain people, anticipating resolution by Friday 12th April. This of course angered me.
I emailed them on Friday 12th 3 times and called 3 times, asking for an update and wishing to speak to the person dealing with it (who I knew was there but "busy"), and if they were planning on wanting to extend or not reply, or settle, it would trigger me to resolve this by alternative means.
No response at all.
Yesterday I was doing some more research and found this...
Bailiffs can only operate in England and Wales. The law further states the debtor must be given a Notice of Enforcement and if that notice was posted to your UK address while you are abroad, then the law says the notice has not been given or "served" because evidence that you are abroad is grounds that you have not been given that notice. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.
My understanding is that, as soon as I made them aware that I was abroad, and therefore could not physically open the mail they sent whilst I was abroad in the 4 weeks prior to the date they attended, that they should know that they cannot pursue this at the stage of a visit, and would need to send the original notice of enforcement again when I am back in the UK?
I have my train ticket bookings, flight bookings, flight boarding passes, accommodation bookings and more for the full period.
The only reason I knew they came, is because of the breach in disclosing my private and financial matters to someone else living in the same property, who thought to contact me, partly because they were scared someone would return to try and take things or cause them stress by knocking on the door. A tenant who rented the ground floor room next to the door, which of course, would cause anxiety.
In their response to me anticipating a resolution by that Monday or Friday, they requested my new address as information they have received suggests I no longer live in the property, and would be the reason for not replying to their letters.
I emailed simply confirming I do not live there since shortly after returning to the UK. I also showed (with specific property names and photos blurred out, leaving only the town/county) of booking.com and airbnb bookings in and around the area I was living in before, as evidence, as it would be strange to make these bookings if I lived 15 minutes away.
I also believe I have grounds to take legal action against the council who I also complained to about the GDPR breach initially, who offered this back to the company who made the initial breach, to recover the amount. Should the council have taken action when I made a complaint and ensured that this same company was not to be involved in any recovery action?
If anyone has any experience of any of this, or anything that could help in my case in taking legal action against them, or if anyone reading is a practising legal representative and believes I have a case they would be more than happy to take on, please let me know.
Thoughts and opinions would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Mr A
I would like to gather thoughts on an interesting situation that took place last summer.
I posted this on mumsnet but basically got heckled with "if you paid your bills you wouldn't have this issue" - "bailiffs don't care, none of this matters, you just need to pay" - but circumstances change for people regularly. Anyway, I hope someone might be able to give me some guidance and advice, which would be much appreciated.
I left my home where I rented a room in a shared house on 16th June 2023 to travel up to an airport I wouldn't have been able to get to if setting off in the morning of the 17th for a 6am flight.
My trip was for 5-6 weeks.
On 17th July 2023, I received a whatsapp message from one of the other tenants in the property, with a photo of a printed, hand finished letter, from an enforcement agent. This is attached with private info blocked out.
I asked why they opened my personal mail, they said they didn't, and that it was posted like that.
I immediately, whilst recording the call, phoned the agent who's mobile and name was on the letter.
I gave the reference number and address, confirmed my name and asked...
"I would like to know why you posted a letter through the door without an envelope, disclosing my personal private matters to people I live with that I am in no way related to".
His response was "It's a single address, that's why, so, what are you going to do about paying this?"
He said he came because I ignored their previous letter. The original letter was posted on a date that I would not have been in the country to receive it.
I said I wanted to get back home, look at all my letters, correspondence, and that I will make contact once I have had a chance to, as I was abroad and couldn't do that.
He said "being abroad does not stop you from making a payment".
The interesting thing is that the council who instructed them had received payments earlier that year, and I had contacted them to ask them to explain a £100 charge that was added over Christmas and New Year because I missed the payment by 6 days, paying it the day I returned to the UK after 3 weeks away.
They didn't reply.
The agent told me if I do not make payment or have the council hold the enforcement by Friday (4 days after), he would get a warrant issued for my arrest upon return to the UK. These were the final words before he ended he call.
Quite a serious threat, I would say.
So, this letter.
It stated my name and address, of course, others in the property knew this anyway, but it disclosed an amount of money outstanding, who to, their company and threats to revisit to remove goods or collect the money in full.
This letter had no date filled in. It had written by hand the total amount to recover, leaving blank the section which says "including an enforcement fee of £......".
I believe letters of this nature should be correct, clear and understandable, of which this is not.
Paragraph 52. Taking control of goods: National Standards (Ministry of Justice)
52. Enforcement agents should, so far as it is practical, avoid disclosing the purpose of their visit to anyone other than the debtor or a third party nominated by the debtor, for example an advice agency representative. Where the debtor is not seen, the relevant documents must be left at the address in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.
The agent had a pen, but surely, he should have, or been supplied with envelopes? If not, imagine how many others he has disclosed private information to.
I called the enforcement office to complain about this, they said the agent said he did post it with an envelope (not knowing I recorded the call and had evidence contradicting this).
I managed to contact the council and get this stopped, £100 fee removed, and the amount emailed to me that was correct, but upon returning to the UK, the mood towards me changed, I felt alone and not welcome in communal spaces in the property, and those living there were different around me than before. Before we were having a lot of laughs, cooking together etc. Due to my previous history of agoraphobia, I had to leave and find alternative accommodation to avoid a serious situation developing surrounding my mental health. Within days, I was gone, without an address, renting rooms on booking.com and airbnb.com temporarily, whilst initially staying with a friend just north of Camden in London for a few nights to help me.
My circumstances changed, my anxiety increased and I could not deal with nor afford any repayments to the council, nor could I deal with taking action against the enforcement agent.
27th March 2024, I get an email from the same agent, with the enforcement instructed by the council for them to collect, stating words "So far,your lack of response has been treated as an oversight, but now it will be considered an active choice.".
I immediately contact them by email, this time providing all of my evidence, including the recording of the admission no envelope was use, the letter posted, references to Paragraph 52, my own threats of reporting them to the ICO, CIVEA, UKAS, the council they are trying to collect from and more.
So, I gave a figure for settlement without legal interception, and stated if not settled by this date, it would be £100 per day on top.
Wednesday 3rd April they reply saying they have moved this to stage 2 along with their complaints procedure, which says within 7 days provide an outcome and conclusion and a decision for this.
They also emailed saying they expect to resolve this by end of Monday 8th April 2023 (wrong year!).
Despite my calls to speak to the person dealing with it several times, and them being in the office but "unavailable to speak", at exactly to the minute 5pm I get an email saying due to the Easter holidays, they have been unable to speak with certain people, anticipating resolution by Friday 12th April. This of course angered me.
I emailed them on Friday 12th 3 times and called 3 times, asking for an update and wishing to speak to the person dealing with it (who I knew was there but "busy"), and if they were planning on wanting to extend or not reply, or settle, it would trigger me to resolve this by alternative means.
No response at all.
Yesterday I was doing some more research and found this...
Bailiffs can only operate in England and Wales. The law further states the debtor must be given a Notice of Enforcement and if that notice was posted to your UK address while you are abroad, then the law says the notice has not been given or "served" because evidence that you are abroad is grounds that you have not been given that notice. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.
My understanding is that, as soon as I made them aware that I was abroad, and therefore could not physically open the mail they sent whilst I was abroad in the 4 weeks prior to the date they attended, that they should know that they cannot pursue this at the stage of a visit, and would need to send the original notice of enforcement again when I am back in the UK?
I have my train ticket bookings, flight bookings, flight boarding passes, accommodation bookings and more for the full period.
The only reason I knew they came, is because of the breach in disclosing my private and financial matters to someone else living in the same property, who thought to contact me, partly because they were scared someone would return to try and take things or cause them stress by knocking on the door. A tenant who rented the ground floor room next to the door, which of course, would cause anxiety.
In their response to me anticipating a resolution by that Monday or Friday, they requested my new address as information they have received suggests I no longer live in the property, and would be the reason for not replying to their letters.
I emailed simply confirming I do not live there since shortly after returning to the UK. I also showed (with specific property names and photos blurred out, leaving only the town/county) of booking.com and airbnb bookings in and around the area I was living in before, as evidence, as it would be strange to make these bookings if I lived 15 minutes away.
I also believe I have grounds to take legal action against the council who I also complained to about the GDPR breach initially, who offered this back to the company who made the initial breach, to recover the amount. Should the council have taken action when I made a complaint and ensured that this same company was not to be involved in any recovery action?
If anyone has any experience of any of this, or anything that could help in my case in taking legal action against them, or if anyone reading is a practising legal representative and believes I have a case they would be more than happy to take on, please let me know.
Thoughts and opinions would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Mr A
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