Help filling in N244 & what to include - Orange Mobile Contract Renewal - CCJ

[OrangeCCJ]

Hi there,

Firstly thanks for taking the time to read my query. If I have missed a post which answers these queries please direct me to it but I have looked and haven't quite found anything that matches my situation - though of course there are similarities with aspects.

I am in the process of appealing to have my wife’s CCJ set aside but wanted to check the best process.

We are appealing for the CCJ to be set aside for 2 principle reasons:

1) The CCJ was sent to a previous address. It was processed 6 months after we had moved and we had no idea. We had informed the most recent of the debt collection agencies of our new address but they did not inform us of this claim at the new address.

2) The debt originated from an Orange Mobile Contract that was renewed explicitly against my wife's request. Once her Orange contract ended she had switched to a different mobile company. This was clearly the case as no calls were made from the old orange number after the end of the contract and her new number was active from that point.

The issue all stems from Orange seemingly renewing a contract when my wife had explicitly cancelled it. She had a new phone from a different company at the time the old Orange one ended. We can send proof of this contract being taken out so the dates prove we did not need nor want, nor use(!) the Orange contract.

I still have 3 initial letters from Orange,
05 June 2012 - Service suspended - Outstanding amount £100.36
27 June 2012 - Account will be disconnected - Outstanding amount £141.22
05 October 2012 - Act now to avoid debt collection £182.08

Then the following companies wrote to us about this debt -

Buchanan Clark & Wells
12 Oct 2012 - £187.17
27 Oct 2012 - £187.17

GPB Solicitors LLP
10 Nov 2012 - £187.17
24 Nov 2012 - £187.17

Plus an undated letter from NCO Europe - £187.17

During this time I logged calls with a number of employees of various companies. Principally Orange to which we had numerous responses (investigation will be opened / disregard any letters already sent out / response within 28 days sort of guff).

We had Orange eventually stating that the debt had been sent to debt companies and debt companies telling us that we had to contact Orange to recall the debt.

One final call to try to sort this out was with Orange on 11 May 2013 - I have all the details of this call - the names & locations of the operators that I spoke to.
They told us an investigation would start that day and take 7-10 days. That there may even be a compensation process if they cancel the account a refund may be due. They emailed the compliance team.
They also told us the debt was now back with Buchanan Clark & Wells.

We also received letters from Bryan Carter Solicitors and spoke to them about all the prior issues. We let them know that we were moving because they contacted us near our move date, which we did in February 2014. EE were now not taking any calls about old Orange accounts.

We now find a CCJ was lodged against us at the old address for £265 in July 2014.

We discovered this last year 2016 however due to personal medical issues we did not follow up though we spoke to Northampton County Court who informed us of options - pay up (Satisfied) appeal (about the same cost, no guarantees but would be Set Aside if successful).

Later in 2016 we started to get letters from Lowell Solicitors and informed them of the personal issue and we would be appealing.
In Feb 2017 we requested a DSAR. We received the reply in March/April 2017.
The DSAR revealed no proof of debt, simply a list of transactions and call logs from me speaking to them in late 2016 / early 2017.

So now we are looking to move house and need to get this sorted and I finally have some time to do this. But it seems a bit of a minefield.
I have been told by Lowell solicitors that Bryan Carter have ceased trading.

So like Orange, the debt company have ceased trading, and we are left between a rock and hard place.

A clear lesson in not letting these things get to this stage, and one we have learned but now we just want to find the best way out. We did not owe the debt, it then spiralled, no-one listened to any of our reasonable complaints, the debtors claiming the money cannot provide proof of debt and the damn thing went to our old address.

I just need to know what’s the best course of action. On the N244 am I claiming for the letter going to the wrong address? The debt being incorrect and there being no proof? Both of these things?

I also need to check what we can and should send - any letters we have from the companies?

If easier please PM me and I can explain the personal information, but it was related to medical issues that are now resolved thankfully!

Thanks again for any help of advice you can offer, even if it might be bad news better to be prepared, it is very kind to offer this time and advice for free and is hugely appreciated!

[R0b]

Re: Help filling in N244 & what to include - Orange Mobile Contract Renewal - CCJ

Well your starting point is that you need to write to Orange and also copy in Lowell if they are instructed to recover the debt - you can CC Lowell on the letter rather than write a separate one. The letter needs to set out your intention to set aside the CCJ and your reasons why. They should consent to your application to set aside and if you feel they are in the wrong then you could also request that they pay your application fees, though is likely they won't agree to this.

In order to have any chance of having it set aside, you need to prepare your application, defence and witness statement, all of these go in your wife's name if she was the account holder as she is the one with the CCJ. If you have been dealing with the matter in her behalf you could also provide a witness statement as part of the application.

While you say there is no evidence or proof of the debt, what evidence do you actually have to say the account was cancelled? Is there any correspondence or emails or text messages to confirm this? Although if you can prove that your wife entered into a new mobile contract soon after the alleged cancellation then that could provide some indication of your wife's intention to cancel. But you still have to prove she was out of contract and that she would have needed to give a months notice too.

These things in addition to notifying the debt collector of a change of address is what you need to put forward a strong defence. If you feel that your case is strong (and from what you said so far I'm not so sure) you could ask Orange to not only consent to the set aside but withdraw the claim also.

[OrangeCCJ]

Re: Help filling in N244 & what to include - Orange Mobile Contract Renewal - CCJ

Well your starting point is that you need to write to Orange and also copy in Lowell if they are instructed to recover the debt - you can CC Lowell on the letter rather than write a separate one. The letter needs to set out your intention to set aside the CCJ and your reasons why. They should consent to your application to set aside and if you feel they are in the wrong then you could also request that they pay your application fees, though is likely they won't agree to this.

In order to have any chance of having it set aside, you need to prepare your application, defence and witness statement, all of these go in your wife's name if she was the account holder as she is the one with the CCJ. If you have been dealing with the matter in her behalf you could also provide a witness statement as part of the application.

While you say there is no evidence or proof of the debt, what evidence do you actually have to say the account was cancelled? Is there any correspondence or emails or text messages to confirm this? Although if you can prove that your wife entered into a new mobile contract soon after the alleged cancellation then that could provide some indication of your wife's intention to cancel. But you still have to prove she was out of contract and that she would have needed to give a months notice too.

These things in addition to notifying the debt collector of a change of address is what you need to put forward a strong defence. If you feel that your case is strong (and from what you said so far I'm not so sure) you could ask Orange to not only consent to the set aside but withdraw the claim also.

Hi R0B - thanks for your response - so... not the news we were hoping for but good to prepared as I say. Two further questions if I may -

As Orange are now ceased trading and have folded into EE, I will contact them and get all the info they have. Assuming they keep call transcripts there will be three of my wife angrily cancelling after years of terrible service! So that will definitely help. And we have the new contract from (actually a little earlier) than the old Orange one ended. Plus any phone statements will show she stopped using Orange at the end of her contract, and began using the new mobile (and number).

Anyway the two questions - 1) As Bryan Carter Solicitors brought the CCJ claim - and they have ceased trading, how can we prove we told them the change of address? If they were around still a DSAR would show it in the call transcripts (assuming they logged each call) but I constantly had issues with them where I kept having to be re-authorised to speak on my wife's behalf despite each operator adding said authorisation 'to the notes' on the account. This concerns me.

2) I would happily pay the amount now, to have it marked Satisfied, but would still want to try to get the judgement 'Set Aside'. So basically to ensure it is at least helping my wife's credit whilst we go through the process. And show willing to pay even though we believe the debt in error and the CCJ invalid. But is it possible (and is it advisable) to pay up and then try to reclaim?

Thanks again to anyone who can help! Already glad I came here for advice.

[R0b]

Re: Help filling in N244 & what to include - Orange Mobile Contract Renewal - CCJ

Yes you are quite right, I keep forgetting Orange merged into EE, still used to calling them Orange. However, I think you need to double check who the name of the claimant is on the Claim Form. You should be able to contact the court and get a copy of the claim form itself free of charge (ask them to email if possible). The reason I say this is because you say Orange have dissolved but a quick look on companies house shows two active companies under the Orange brand:

Orange Home UK Limited - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03014367

Orange Personal Communications Services Limted - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02178917

I can't remember what company the Orange brand operated under as they had several subsidiaries but it could be one of the above or it could indeed be a company that has dissolved. If the company has dissolved then there will be one of two ways going about this.

Option 1: You could issue an application to set aside (with the correct company name) and hope that the judge does indeed set it aside without alerting him/her to the fact that the company is dissolved (if it is). The judge could then set aside the application but this means it goes back to the hearing stage and a trial date will be set. This could get messy is a judge picks up on it and questions if the company has dissolved or not, which leads onto the second option.

Option 2: Ordinarily, if a person wishes to claim against a company which is now dissolved needs to restore the company back to the register on Companies House before you can bring a claim and this is not a cheap option. However I am not sure if the same principle applies on a set aside application or if there are workarounds. It would make sense to restore the company but you could argue that is an issue especially for those who are unaware of a CCJ and are seeking to set it aside.

So those are the options really, but before you go diving into that, how are Lowells involved in this? Has the debt been purchased and/or who are they acting for? Lowell's would certainly not be acting for a dissolved company because they wouldn't get paid and that would be plain silly.

I think you need to go back to basics and fast before you jump into the deep end. I think your initial investigations should be:

1. Who is the Claimant who obtained judgment against you
2. Who are Lowells acting on behalf of and what is their role - do they have any details of the claim and what information can you glean from them?
3. If the Claimant is Orange and the debt hasn't been sold to another debt purchaser, then Option 1 would be the way to go. Equally if there is a debt purchaser who has purchased the debt, you should use Option 1.

In terms of getting any calls or transcripts you might be unlucky as I have a friend who works at EE and I am sure he said to me the systems have changed since the Orange days, so whilst the accounts have migrated, the recorded calls and other things may not have.

P.s. Bryan Carter are of no relevance here unless they have purchased the debt. Your only concern is who owns the debt and who is the claimant on the claim form as either of them are the owners of the debt.