Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

[Irishman245]

Hello,

Any advice will be appreciated. I will try and be brief.

I recently received a letter from a debt company called Agilysis informing me that I was liable to pay just short of £2000 of council tax from 2007/2008. This is the first I have been made aware of this. I did live in this property at the time so I am not disputing that.

This was a shared house with 3 or 4 other individuals, I can't rememebr as it was so long ago. The advised me when I spoke to them on the phone that the landlord had furnished the council with an email naming all of the tenants. For some reason they have not named the other individuals I lived with on this bill.

When I asked why this was the case I was advised that they could pursue whoever they wanted in the house. I spoke to citizens advice bureau who weren't the best as the person I spoke to confessed that they were not sure. The company Agilysys said that it fell under joint and several liability, when I was looking at this legislation it looked like this more applied to husband and wives rather than a joint tenancy.

Obviously if this was presented at the time I would have paid for it but I genuinely dont rememebr receiving any letters as such. The difficulty I now find myself in is that I dont have any details for the people who I lived with to query this and do not feel that if money is owed that it should fall only on my shoulders to pay for this. As you imagine I dont have £2000 odd lying round.

Also not sure, I now live in Northern Ireland; can this still be pursued here?

Thanks again guys

[Kati]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

Were you in a HMO (House in Multiple Occupancy) [MENTION=105832]Irishman245[/MENTION]?? ~ https://www.gov.uk/private-renting/h...ple-occupation

Your home is a house in multiple occupation (HMO) if both of the following apply:

• at least 3 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household
• you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants

if so then it should have been the LL who paid the CT!

tagging [MENTION=15129]Crazy council[/MENTION] [MENTION=92682]lgfa92[/MENTION] [MENTION=8136]outlawlgo[/MENTION]

[Irishman245]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

Hi, thanks for the swift reply. I was not aware of this HMO terminology until a recent email from the council. I queried this with them as the house did in fact meet that criteria. Their response was as follows.

I did not say HMO's are limited to to a hostel or B&Bs just that they are the majority of cases.


There are more things to be considered than the government website implies. There are legal definitions of whether a property is shared or a HMO. These are:


HMOs have very little shared facilities - they are usually bedsits with only the bathroom and kitchen shared.


Tenancy agreements – do the tenants have separate agreements? It is usually what identifies an HMO. If the tenants have only one agreement and are jointly responsible for paying the whole rent for the property, this is usually not an HMO, it is a shared house and the tenants are liable to pay Council Tax. With a HMO the tenants have separate tenancy agreements which usually states that the owner pays the Council Tax and is included in the rent.



Share of the rent – whether the tenants have one tenancy agreement or individual agreements, what share of the rent are they liable for? Are they each individually liable for their own share? Or are they jointly liable for the whole rent. The legal definition clearly states if the tenants are not liable to pay rent in respect of the dwelling as a whole, it is an HMO. Example - A landlord may let a two-bedroom flat to two separate tenants, each with their own agreement, one rents bedroom A, and the other bedroom B and they share all other rooms. This is an HMO. If the tenant in bedroom B moves out, and the remaining tenant has no right to occupy room B, nor is responsible for the rent for room B, the flat is still an HMO and the landlord remains liable.
Occupation of the home – In an HMO, the tenants normally only have the right to occupy their own bedroom and the shared parts of the property. Tenancy agreements often specify which bedroom the person occupies, for example Room 1 or Room A. They may even pay a different amount depending on the size of the room. In shared houses the tenants simply rent the whole property and decide between them which room they each occupy. HMOs often have locks on individual bedroom doors and they don’t access each others’ bedrooms as their tenancies are only for their room and the shared rooms.
Control over who occupies – In a shared house the tenants usually have greater control over who occupies the house. As they are jointly responsible for the whole rent there will usually be some degree of trust between the tenants, they may be friends or relatives and will usually sign up for the tenancy together and move in at the same time. If one vacates they will need to cover the rent or find someone else to move in. In an HMO, the landlord has greater control. The tenants often don’t know each other prior to moving in and will move in and out on different dates.

Utility bills – In HMOs, the landlord will often pay the utility bills for the property and include charges to cover this expense in the rent. You will find this information in the tenancy agreement. In shared houses, the joint tenants are usually responsible for paying utility bills themselves.
In conclusion the house is not, and never has been, classed as an HMO.

Not sure if they are saying this because it just suits them to say so.

[Crazy council]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

Hi

one question

This was a shared house with 3 or 4 other individuals

one contract, or one each, did you all move in at same time or were you all related, was it student occomodaation


I have dealt with a number of Hmo's, over the years, and this is a not unusual for LLs to do this and councils not sort it out untill challanged, and tenants left to sort it out years later

Email the council, council tax dept, explain/tell them it was a hmo( ) , and that the CT is nothing to do with you, tell them that if your approached again by the collection agency, you wish t make a formal complaint against the collections manager

You dont own this, but the collection firms wont do anything about it untill the council change it, and if you just call the council you will probebly get caust up dealing with it for weeks,

[Irishman245]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

To be honest a bit of this goes over my head. I believe that when I moved in, 2 other people started thier tenancy at that point along with me. Another individual joined us down the line but I can't remember if he signed a seperate contract or not. It was so long ago. None of us were related.

I sent an email querying this with the council and they took my email as a complaint. I have omitted the specifics in relation to the address / amounts etc.

This is their response...

Dear Mr xxxx



Thank you for your email dated xxxx regarding Council Tax at xxxx.



In your email you have stated that:


1. You find it unreasonable that the first you have been notified of this debt is almost a decade after the debt was accrued.
2. Agilisys mentioned an email from the landlord of the property to the Council which is no longer available. How is it that we are able to produce letters dated back to 2008 but not able to evidence that there are others who might be liable – why has your name been picked in relation to liability?
3. You have changed bank accounts several times so you have no means to prove whether something was or was not paid.
4. You believe the assumption that you are solely liable to be false and representations should be made to the other tenants.
5. You have been told by one of the other tenants that the tenancy agreement states that you are not responsible for the Council Tax, only the bills.


I have now investigated the issues you have raised and report as follows:


1. All correspondence from the address was returned to us as no longer resident. When you vacated the property the onus was upon yourself to notify the Council of the details but you failed to do so. Extensive searches have been done to ascertain the whereabouts of you, as the account holder, to no avail. This has resulted in the use of an outside agency to chase up old debt that has been closed and returned by an Enforcement Agency as gone away.


2. The email you refer to was an email from the landlord to notify us of the tenants. This is recorded on the account notes, however, all correspondence have been archived prior to 2010/2011, therefore, no longer available.


Our records note that you contacted the Council Tax Service in April 2008 to ask why the other three housemates were not named on the bill. You were advised that it is only relevant to make one or two persons liable. It is the responsibility of the liable person to liaise with the other occupants with regards to payment.


3. The balance outstanding is £xxxx. No payments have been made on the account.



4. As stated above, the Council is aware that other tenants were liable, however, you have been billed as the main householder.


5. The hierarchy of liability and responsibility for Council Tax payments is with the tenant and not the landlord. Any dispute with regards to payments is between the landlord and the tenant. If the tenancy agreement states that the Council Tax is included in the rent, unfortunately, you need to take this up with the landlord.


In conclusion, I do not uphold your complaint as there is no evidence to state that you are not liable for the balance outstanding.


Your complaint has now been considered at Stage One of the Council’s complaints procedure. If you feel your complaint has not been satisfactorily answered, you have the right to request that it is reviewed at Stage Two, if you wish to do this you should contact the Corporate Complaints Team at the following address:




Your request for a review should be made within 20 working days of the date of this letter. You will need to explain the reasons why you remain dissatisfied and how you expect the complaint to be resolved.


The Corporate Complaints Team will then decide whether a Stage Two review is likely to bring a different outcome and also whether your desired outcomes are reasonable and achievable.


In every case your complaint will be reviewed and you will be notified of the decision on whether a Stage Two investigation will be undertaken. If a further investigation is undertaken you will receive a full response within a maximum of 15 working days. If there is to be no Stage Two investigation you will be advised of your ongoing right of appeal.

---

I never contacted the council in 2008 about this so not sure how they are stating this. If I spoke to them about this in 2008 surely I would have been contacting themto resolve this in some fashion. Just seems strange. how would I have contacted them if the letters were sent after I had left as they stated I had gone away?

Any thoughts?

[lgfa92]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

In terms of joint liability under Section 6 of the LGFA 1992 it matters not whether the people are partners or not - what matters is their legal interest in the property. Each liable person can be individually pursued, for 100% of the monies if the council so wishes.

It should also be legislation for Council Tax HMO's is different to that used for licensing purposes.To be a Council Tax HMO the specific criteria is :

Class C
a dwelling which
(a) was originally constructed or subsequently adapted for occupation by persons who do not constitute a single household; or
(b) is inhabited by a person who, or by two or more persons each of whom either--
(i) is a tenant of, or has a licence to occupy, part only of the dwelling; or
(ii) has a licence to occupy, but is not liable (whether alone or jointly with other persons) to pay rent or a licence fee in respect of, the dwelling as a whole

.

There are two possible outcomes from this legislation :
If the property does not meet the criteria above then it is not a HMO for Council Tax purposes.
or
If the property does meet the criteria above then it is a HMO for Council Tax purposes and the landlord of the property is liable for the Council Tax which is due.


As it stands the council have made a decision on liability, if you don't agree then you can challenge this with them. If the council don't agree with your liability dispute then ultimately the only action would be to appeal to a Valuation Tribunal - note however the council's liability decisions stands until it is changed and they can pursue you until such time, even if an appeal has been lodged.


Craig

[Irishman245]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

Craig,

Thanks for this, I think I am just going to have to continue to challenge this with the council. Do you know if there are any limitations on the enforcement powers which they can use as I have now moved to Northern Ireland?

I am going to struggle with paying this as I am no longer in contact with the other people who were in the house at the time so can't even ask them to help out.

Thanks

[Crazy council]

Re: Agilysys - Manchester Council tax - Query

was it student occomodation ?