Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

[monkeybuster]

Hi,

After years of paying £1/month to my creditors, I am now following the advice I have read and will be writing to my creditors to see who can produce enforceable CCA-compliant documents (terms/conditions; payments and charges; etc).

Having looked at one letter from a creditor, I think they've made a big mistake, which I'm hoping might mean it's non-enforceable.

It supposedly relates to a current account (they've stated that the agreement was signed in 1997). I DID have an account with the particular bank, but my overdraft was never more than £4000. However, this debt agency is claiming £16k! Now, I DID have a loan with the same bank, and I think that they may have mixed these up, but the sort code and account that the debt agency gives is definitely for my old current account and not the loan. Might this suggest that they don't have the proper paperwork?

I think I have read somewhere that the asking for CCA information is different for current accounts and overdrafts than for loans and credit cards.
Am I still able to make a CCA request if bank accounts are not covered by the same legislation as loans and credit cards? If so, under what legislation and with what kind of letter should I contact them if bank accounts are different to credit card and loan debts? And I if dispute the amount on the grounds that I never had such an enormous overdraft, is the burden of proof with me or the debt agency?

Thanks.

[charitynjw]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Hi monkeybuster

Are you being chased for any of these?
Sometimes it's better to keep your head below the parapet unless/until you are forced to act.

[Amethyst]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

HSBC per chance? They are pretty dire at mingling together loans and overdrafts, then the DCAs claim on the overdraft as they think that makes defending more difficult. What I would do is send a Subject access Request to HSBC directly while you're in information gathering mode. ALSO separately send a CCA request to the current assignee/creditor - they may well respond that it is not applicable as an overdraft but you know better so just hang on to that until you get your SAR info back from HSBC. The current creditor will have to evidence both parts of the claim to go forwards, and show how the amount they are claiming has been calculated.

If you have been paying tokens for many years and not really contacting creditors, then be ready for some of them to suddenly jump up and start hassling you again - and possibly starting to look at court action. I can understand totally you wanting to sort things out to bring it to an end, just don't be suprised if things get hairy for a bit, so think carefully and maybe just do one at a time.... ( though some communicate and will have more than one debt so you'll need a deep breath before you get started )

Are you intending on stopping your DMP ( is it a DMP through anyone like stepchange or just something you've set up yourself? ) payments on receipt of responses from creditors ?

Do you own your own home ?

Actually thinking on it, if you can afford to, I might be SAR'ing all the original creditors so you can see where to focus your efforts on getting things closed off, before nudging any of the debt firms into action.

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Hi Amethyst and charitynjw,


Thanks for your replies. It's gives me pause for thought that you both highlight that this could open a can of worms for me!

So, a bit of context:
I had been letting things tick over for years, paying £1 a month to all my creditors, and kind of hope it might all just go away somehow! But earlier in the year a debt got transferred to a new agency (MBNA to Experto Credite and finally to PRA Group), and because I hadn't got my mail properly and didn't defend it, I've ended up with a big CCJ.... just as my credit file was clear again after several years! So it's hit me a bit and left me feeling like it's always going to be hanging over me and whenever I start to feel free of it, somebody will hit me with another CCJ etc or something. So I just feel like I want to try to start getting things sorted something.


But I get what you're saying about letting sleeping dogs lie – but won't the debts just always be there if I don't try to do something?


What about maybe asking them one at a time – perhaps first ask the ones that I suspect don't have the proper CCA-compliant documents – for the relevant information. And if they don't provide it can I just walk away from that debt...? Or is that likely to result in court action and another CCJ?
If I could establish that they don't have an enforceable debt, could I ignore them; refuse to acknowledge it, and then at least in 6 years it would be statute barred and at least one debt off the list of debts?


Or is that wishful thinking....?


Yes – I do own my own home. I've fought really hard to try to protect the equity through debt and divorce, so would hate to lose it. Is that an argument in favour of keeping my head down...? Or is it going to be impossible to protect my equity?


And yes Amethyst, you're right, it was HSBC! I'm not paying through a DMP, I just wrote years ago and said that was all I could pay, and that's all I've been paying. So no, the £16k one (HSBC, currently with Cabot) are not particular bothering me for it at the moment, they just send me updates from time to time. But it makes me wonder if the reason they're not hassling me is because they know it's not enforceable? Or again, is that just wishful thinking?

Just wondering if/how I could start tackling things really. Regarding a SAR request to HSBC: they shut my account about 8 years ago - are they likely to have any information to send?


Thanks again for any advice.

[Amethyst]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Just on the PRA CCJ first quickly ...

But earlier in the year a debt got transferred to a new agency (MBNA to Experto Credite and finally to PRA Group), and because I hadn't got my mail properly and didn't defend it, I've ended up with a big CCJ....

When you say didn't get your mail properly, do you mean you were just being an ostrich and binning the brown envelopes, or it didn't actually come to your address ? How long ago did you get the judgment, and was it a forthwith judgment or installments ? oh and how much approx is it ?

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Hi,

It's £9k. It was issued back around March (payment "forthwith").
The mail issue was that I used to live on a boat so didn't have a mailing address, so have always used a mailbox. Then when I moved off the boat into a house I was already in financial trouble and getting lots of nasty letters, so I have kept the mailbox going and get it periodically forwarded on to me. Because everything seemed to be ticking along smoothly at £1/month I'd not had my mail forwarded for ages, so I missed everything. So unfortunately I don't think I can argue that they should have done anything differently since they don't have any other address for me.

I've spoken to a debt charity and they don't think there's much hope of arguing against the CCJ (e.g. getting it set aside). They've been through a budget and I'm about to send a letter offering £20/month - this is a pro rata amount from the left over of my income/expenditure, taking my other debts into account too. They are hopeful that PRA will accept it since going through that whole budget etc is just what would happen if they continue with legal action regarding the CCJ.

It's just deflating that after my credit record was finally clear, that this will re-set it again. That's why I'm interested in trying to look at the other debts I have (e.g. this £16k with Cabot which mixed up my overdraft and a loan) to see if I can actually get rid of any....

Thanks again.

[Amethyst]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Morning xxx did the debt charity discuss with you the options open to the judgment holder for enforcement re your house? Also are you reviewing your other debts with the debt charity - redo income expenditure / adjust instalment offers and do on? Have they told you to offer the instalment directly to PRA or apply for a variation of the order through court?
( sorry for lots of questions - its best to have a good idea of the exact position to have an idea what your options are)

I agree at first thought it seems a big ask to get this set aside, but worth considering. Particularly as it was originally MBNA and went through experto to PRA. Their paper trail has problems.

How long have you been living off the boat? Are you on the electoral roll at your current home and do you receive other post there? Does your current address show on your credit file?

For the HSBC debt with Cabot, as things are quiet I would just get the subject access request off to HSBC - they should provide everything they hold and you can ask them to deliver to your local branch for ID purposes. Leave Cabot alone and just carry on as normal.

The CCJ being registered on your credit file may kick some of the others so you're probably right time wise to start getting sorted. This is 16k and the ccj is £9k - are they the biggest? how much do you think there is lurking overall? and most are 8 years old ( been paying your £1 odd a month for 8 yrs)? Any funds at all to consider full and final offers ( after 8 yrs you might get quite low numbers to settle )

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time. I'll go through the questions:

- The house is not currently on the debt agencies radar, and I would like to keep it that way if possible. I've been off the boat for 3 years. I'm not on the Electoral Roll and all my financial post goes to the mailbox. The address does show on my credit file since I have a mortgage on it. So especially if the new CCJ starts triggering other agencies to start probing my credit file, then I may not be able to protect it ultimately

- The debt charity did mention that agencies can put a charge on the house, which I'd really like to avoid if possible. Other enforcements about the house: I have two children with me half the time, so I'm hoping/assuming I couldn't be forced to sell?

- The debt agency suggested I could either send my offer to PRA Group to accept, or apply to the court for a variation. I thought first I'd just send it to PRA and hope they accept it? (On the cover letter I'll include that the debt charity said they felt that it would be accepted by the court, since I don't have anything more to offer on a monthly basis, so hopefully PRA will accept).

- The £16k Cabot/HSBC debt and the £9k CCJ are the biggest, but there's lots of others (totalling £90k). Yes, I've been paying £1/month for about 8 years. So I would certainly like to think some may accept settlements, although I've heard mixed reports. Some stories of people settling for 10%, others saying the agency wants 50%+. Might this depend on whether the agency knows whether or not they holding "enforceable debts"? If you do a CCA request and they can't provide the info - should you just walk away; or make an offer of 10% to try to get it actually closed?

Either way, I'm a bit anxious that (as you say) it may stir up a hornets nest!
Yes, I'm concerned that the new CCJ may start other agencies becoming more active now.

- There MAY be some funds to make SOME settlement offers. My parents might be able to help out a bit. On a related matter (maybe a new thread needed?) I wanted to find out if I could place a voluntary charging order on my own home if my parents lent me money? Would this then protect the money they lent me, and ultimately keep some of the house equity in the family if agencies do end up following with charging orders. Is it just first come first served with charging orders - so if my parents lend me money and they we apply to put a charge on the house, then that would take priority over any subsequent charges that agencies might try to place?

- So far, the debt charity has just gone through the budget and sent me their summary, which I intend to use with PRA regarding the CCJ. They did suggest that I should pro rata pay all the other debts too. But if they are currently accepting £1/month I don't really want to write and give more! I know from the charity's view point (and the Official Receiver, if you go bankrupt for example) that you are supposed to treat all creditors equally. But on a practical level, is it ok to be paying £1/month to those who are currently accepting it, whilst paying £20/month to PRA?


- Could I just start taking the debts one at a time, and if I've got a few hundred pounds at any point, then try to get one settled? Then a few months later, try another - and just work through some of them? Maybe start with the ones I think might not have proper paper trails and so might accept a lower offer?

- Regarding the SAR request to HSBC: is it likely that HSBC would have more documentation than ever ended up reaching Cabot? Or after all this time, might they have nothing at all? Would the plan be that if HSBC have nothing, then I hope/assume that Cabot won't either?

Thanks again.

Morning xxx did the debt charity discuss with you the options open to the judgment holder for enforcement re your house? Also are you reviewing your other debts with the debt charity - redo income expenditure / adjust instalment offers and do on? Have they told you to offer the instalment directly to PRA or apply for a variation of the order through court?
( sorry for lots of questions - its best to have a good idea of the exact position to have an idea what your options are)

I agree at first thought it seems a big ask to get this set aside, but worth considering. Particularly as it was originally MBNA and went through experto to PRA. Their paper trail has problems.

How long have you been living off the boat? Are you on the electoral roll at your current home and do you receive other post there? Does your current address show on your credit file?

For the HSBC debt with Cabot, as things are quiet I would just get the subject access request off to HSBC - they should provide everything they hold and you can ask them to deliver to your local branch for ID purposes. Leave Cabot alone and just carry on as normal.

The CCJ being registered on your credit file may kick some of the others so you're probably right time wise to start getting sorted. This is 16k and the ccj is £9k - are they the biggest? how much do you think there is lurking overall? and most are 8 years old ( been paying your £1 odd a month for 8 yrs)? Any funds at all to consider full and final offers ( after 8 yrs you might get quite low numbers to settle )

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Also, for the SAR to HSBC is there a template for banks?

I've found this link on the site: http://legalbeagles.info/library/gui...ccess-request/

Though this seems quite general (e.g. requesting information on emails/personnel files). What specific information should I be requesting - e.g. is it copies of agreements; banks statements showing balance (which would never be more than £4k overdrawn, NOT the £16K that Cabot have lumped in with the loan).
And will one request cover ALL information from ALL things (loan; credit card; bank account; life insurance; mortgage - which I still have with HSBC).

Does the fact that I still have my mortgage with HSBC complicate matters at all?

Incidentally, I do still receive a letter from HSBC (and not a debt agency) regarding my credit card debt, so they seem to have held on to that one themselves.

Thanks.

[MIKE770]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Subject Access Request Letter


you request all information held on you including hand written notes as per regulation,

[Diana M]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

The house is not currently on the debt agencies radar, and I would like to keep it that way if possible. I've been off the boat for 3 years. I'm not on the Electoral Roll and all my financial post goes to the mailbox. The address does show on my credit file since I have a mortgage on it.

Do you mind if I ask you a few questions in order to clarify the PRA default judgment (CCJ) situation. Your answers may help your overall situation too

The house you live in has a mortgage so that information (your current address and mortgage/loan secured on it) is showing on your CRA file.

If so then even though you are not on the Electoral Roll at that address you still have a financial 'visibility' on the CRAs.

Is there any other financial information on your CRA file such as a bank account or utility/mobile phone account (some report to the CRAs and some don't).

(Do you have a vehicle registered with the DVLA or a driving licence at your current address? DVLA share some information with others as do Royal Mail.)

Have you checked your CRA file to see who (if anyone) has searched it? The searches remain on record for two years.

So did PRA search it before they issued legal proceedings for that debt? They tend to do this about nine months to a year before a claim is issued - presumably to see if the person is worth chasing (if they see a mortgage they'll presume a property owner).

To what address did PRA serve the claim? Was it your mail referral service? What is the 'last known address' that PRA have?

I'm guessing you found out about the CCJ from your CRA file but correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you have any linked addresses on your CRA file?

Sorry about all the questions but it does seem your priority (according to you) is to see whether there's hope of getting that CCJ set aside.

Di

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Thank you Di.

I'll go through the questions in turn.

- The house you live in has a mortgage so that information (your current address and mortgage/loan secured on it) is showing on your CRA file.
Looking again at my most recent CRA (which I did in Sept 16) it seems to show the mortgage (with HSBC, which may or may not be relevant to my other questions regarding the debt with Cabot and the SAR request from HSBC), but does not show the property address.

- If so then even though you are not on the Electoral Roll at that address you still have a financial 'visibility' on the CRAs.
Yes, I think so. I guess it's not obvious that I live there (when I lived on the boat I rented the house out), but it is clear that I have a mortgage on a property.

- Is there any other financial information on your CRA file such as a bank account or utility/mobile phone account (some report to the CRAs and some don't).
Last year, my bank wrote to me offering an overdraft. When I got into financial trouble 8 years back I opened a basic bank account which I always used. I guess once all the defaults dropped off my file after 6 years the bank looked at my record and thought they'd offer me an overdraft. So that shows up.

- (Do you have a vehicle registered with the DVLA or a driving licence at your current address? DVLA share some information with others as do Royal Mail.)
My Tax Credits etc are registered here. So I guess there's quite a lot of visibility. It's just all my financial stuff that still goes to the mailbox.

- Have you checked your CRA file to see who (if anyone) has searched it? The searches remain on record for two years.
I checked it last year whilst getting divorced. I haven't checked it recently. Perhaps I should do that? Under the previous searches section it shows one for my bank (from when they offered me an overdraft); and two others say "searched by Experian Credit Report" and say, Application type: "Identification: Generic type" and "Credit report". These are 3 days before I received the report, so I assume they related to my own search?

- So did PRA search it before they issued legal proceedings for that debt? They tend to do this about nine months to a year before a claim is issued - presumably to see if the person is worth chasing (if they see a mortgage they'll presume a property owner).
It doesn't look like they had searched it up until the end of August 2016. PRA first wrote to me in December 2016 about taking over the debt, and applied for the CCJ in early 2017.

- To what address did PRA serve the claim? Was it your mail referral service? What is the 'last known address' that PRA have?
Yes, they sent it to the mailbox address. And that's where the court documents went. That's the last known address. So I don't think I can argue they did anything wrong in me not receiving the documents in time.

- I'm guessing you found out about the CCJ from your CRA file but correct me if I'm wrong.
No, I found out when I got my mail forwarded recently. I have to accept some responsibility here. Because I'd been paying all my creditors £1/month for years and it was all ticking along, and I wasn't being hassled, I got out of the habit of getting my mail regularly sent (I also had a divorce going on!). So I missed the stuff about PRA taking over the debt. Perhaps if I'd written to them in January with a budget I could have avoided the CCJ. But it's done now. So although I've not checked my credit file lately, I assume the CCJ is on there by now since it got issued around March/April.

- Do you have any linked addresses on your CRA file?
Only previous addresses I've lived at, or used for mailing when I lived on the boat before I got my mailbox. My house doesn't show as a linked address.

- Sorry about all the questions but it does seem your priority (according to you) is to see whether there's hope of getting that CCJ set aside.
That's fine about the questions, thanks for your time. To be honest, I'm not optimistic about getting it set aside as I don't know if I have any grounds to argue that there was anything wrong (although it's quite possible that PRA didn't actually have an enforceable debt, I understand that since I didn't defend it at the time then the CCJ supercedes any lack of documentation etc). So I kind of feel resigned to the CCJ (unless you think they may be hope for setting it aside). I feel my priority is to a) protect the equity in my house, if possible; and b) perhaps now try to settle as much debt as I can. Because otherwise, I feel that every time my credit file gets clear, sooner or later another creditor will come at me and it will never be finished!

Thanks again.

[monkeybuster]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Thanks Mike. So what level of detailed information can I expect to receive - will it be down as far as all my previous monthly statements etc? Could be a big package!

Also, is there any benefit or risk in specifically listing the two relevant accounts (i.e. the loan and the current account with overdraft) that Cabot seem to have bundled together? Those are the ones I'm most interested in.

[Amethyst]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Sometime it can be a A4 paper 5 ream box load of papers.... lol. Rather than statements it would be transaction lists. If you use the standard ICO template ( the one I think Mike linked to) you can add in particular things that you want but ask for the SAR ''to include, but not be restricted to'' ..... you want agreements to all accounts particularly your loan and current account, transaction lists, screen notes, any letters sent to you, and any information about yourself or your accounts passed to third parties.

[Diana M]

Re: Requesting CCA information on a defaulted current account/overdraft

Okay I've read all that and I'd like to pick up on a few things to help me establish any potential for a set aside (and to help with your other debt issues).

You last searched your CRA file in September 2016 which was before the debt was assigned to PRA in December 2016. Your last search didn't show any search by PRA because they didn't own the debt at that point.

What I think you need to establish is whether they could have known your current address at the time they issued a claim at you mailbox address. See if they search it after December 2016.

From what you say if PRA did search it they would have seen you have a financial visibility at the address even though your 'last known address' was the mail box service.

However I'm not sure I've understood the situation with your HSBC mortgage which you say is showing on your CRA file. Are there two separate properties involved in this situation - one in which you live and one which is rented out?

Or do you mean that the HSBC mortgage account is showing under your current address as a financial product but it doesn't reveal the address which it's secured on.

I'm looking for reasons to demonstrate that they should have known where you lived when carrying out pre-litigation due diligence.

It's complicated isn't it

Di