Refused Holidays At Work

[SAPFO]

I'll try and keep this to a brief timeline so as not to bore you all to death.

Basically requested a holiday, and an extra day later in Nov, at work last June. It was picked up in very July 2016 by my manager, who've I've had issues with in the past. He declined it via a 3rd party. When I asked why, in a, group of around 12 people, his reply was "I am the manager, I make the decisions". People will back me up on this if needed. I always check the board beforehand, so knew there was space, and later on in Sept another colleague was given the day in November I had had declined.

Anyway, in July I contacted my head union rep, he never responded, so I contacted Len McLuskey, head of Unite, and down the chain it rolled until I got the attention I sought out to get. It took until late August for the head union man to email me and ay he'd set up a meeting with the manager, which never happened immediately, causing me much stress about the situation, especially at home, as the plan was to take the kids on holiday in Oct, as we had purchased a house last year, and couldn't afford to take go in the summer hols last year. This as you can imagine caused me major stress. It literally ruined my year. My older lad was due to be in leg casts after the holiday for 2 months, so we thought the break would be great for him especially.

Anyway, this meeting happened late Sept, where the manager played dumb. He denied he knew he had give out hols after refusing mine, and also denied he'd knew he'd give someone the day I had had refused. I had provided all the evidence that the holiday board was free and clear as far back as June/July when I put in my original request. He also said "why didn't you tell me what you needed the hols for?" Seriously, I do not have to justify why I want my time off unless its short notice. Then the head union man, who represents me and my manager tried the old "well you are both members, if you push this you might not know what may come out of the woodwork" (words to that effect) I took that as a subtle threat, and told them to pursue with the grievance.

My holiday requested was granted by somebody else in early Oct. Too late too go on holiday by that point as the mrs work arrangements had changed now.

I took my week off at Oct end, and then went to the docs Nov, as I felt I was at tipping point, I literally wanted to throttle the manager, and felt any more grief and Id be a danger. I told the doc this, he suggested staying away until the grievance is completed. I visited works OHealth, who also suggested 6 weeks off.

Dec, I was due to go back, but HR phoned, and asked me why my grievance landed at a plant 150 miles away?? And that there would be a delay. More stress, so I got another note until January end.

January end, I was invited to a management meeting on the recommendation of my Occupation Health worked, to allay any fears I had about returning to work. 4 people were supposed to be there as said on the letter. Me, rep, the new manager (not him), and the main boss, whop did not turn up. It was totally pointless, I came out worse for it. I requested an update on the grievance in Feb, nothing. My rep who is a mate told me they are playing the delay game in hope I forget, as most do.

I have since found out I have lost my specific position within the company, and now have to find a new one, as I was off longer than 13 weeks, though no fault of my own. To this date in April the grievance has still not been dealt with, and I am still suffering the stress of it all, but I have to return next week regardless, as I will lose a lot more money that I just cannot afford to lose.

Has anybody else been the little man fighting the whole corrupt system. How did you cope, and what do you suggest?

[leclerc]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

I think his comments of "I am the manager, I make the decisions", is pretty poor considering that he could have simply said that he would speak to you privately and explain the reasons but that is a mistake on his part.

This might be controversial to some reading this but sometimes, Union Reps are bloody idiots and it's not worth the subs that you pay. I would suggest reading the ACAS site and even giving them a call as well.

Will ask [MENTION=51026]Ula[/MENTION] to take a look at the thread and offer some advice....

[SAPFO]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

Thank you very much for your reply. My mate who is my local rep has told me that his union seniors told him "we don't want no paperwork" I've fired an email to the head union man yesterday, and he's told me to contact my manager if I want to return next week. This is the man I have the issue with. Honestly I am not ready to go back. My sleep is non existent, and my head is pounding with this stress at the min.

My pay drops again next week, my union mate suggested I can claim the difference from the government too make up my loss should I not feel ready to return. Anybody know if this is true?

[warwick65]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

At the risk of sounding defeatist, I always recommend following the chain for a grievance. When people get sidestepped they tend to be on the defensive jence your email to Len McLuskey may not have been the best move.

Did I miss the bit about how your grievance ended up 150 miles away

[SAPFO]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

Ive been to the docs, and Im not retuning until they sort this out. My doc is on my side with this, and so was my employers OH at the start of it. How can you work for a company who allow a manager to behave in this way, and a union who are in bed with the management, and want to bury everything. The fact me and the manager are rep[resented by the same union rep is a conflict of interest I believe.


Ive had a very bad experience with the union in the past. I was kangaroo courted out of a job during the credit crunch on a trumped up charge. The company were on their arse, and thought sacking about 10 of us for literally nothing was the answer rather than make redundancies, where they would have been the first to go. The union backed me all the way, that was until it came to paying my legal fees in court. Their 'solicitor' decided I didn't have a case. I took it private, and he told me at the first meeting you will win this, and it will be 10k. He was bang on. He took his 33% though. So the union cost me Ł3300. So this time I am going to take sure I get every pennies worth and force them to do the job we elected them to do.

[ULA]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

So coming into this after a few posts it sounds like this all started mid last year when your manager declined your request for holiday with no real reason other than "I am the manager, I make the decisions" and things have escalated since then.

There is nothing that you can now do about the holiday time that has been and gone. However it sound like you want some resolution to the original grievance that you raised that appears not to have been dealt with. I am not sure what the reference is to the grievance ending up 150 miles away is, however when you raised the grievance I presume it was in writing and did you keep a copy of the letter? If you did I would send an email to the HR department with a copy of the original grievance attached and explain that that it has not yet been resolved and that you want this to be put into the company's grievance procedure. I would suggest asking for acknowledgment of their receipt of the grievance and also requesting a copy of the grievance procedure which should provide details of the process and the timescales in which the company should respond at various stages of the process.

[SAPFO]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

Hi, thanks for the reply. Below I will post an easy to follow timeline with more details. I am thankful that someone takes the time to read this, as there really is nobody else who has any understanding of these situations. How people must have been treated in the old days I dread to think.

5th July 16
Local rep was away, and I had nobody who I could contact immediately for union support (I was also on night shift), so I contacted the head of Unite via email. This started a chain on emails over the next few days between me, and various higher-ups in Unite, as I was passed down the chain. I detailed my issue very well in these emails, along with my evidence. Told top contact head union on site as they have contacted him and he is expecting my call.

13th July 16
Made a phone call to speak to the head union man, he's not there, so I was told email my problem. I did, with all of the mentioned above. However, no reply. Issue dragged on over our summer shutdown period, with me assuming the main union man had it in line, while constantly nagging my local rep who had returned. He did later tell me he was himself meeting resistance from above, and they they wanted to "bury it". Whether id get him to write that down is another matter though. We all know how it works.

Sept 2016
I'd got my rep, and a senior rep to approach the manager after explaining the situation to the senior rep (not head rep). My holiday was supposed to be the following month. It was already ruined. The manager showed a total lack of respect to the senior rep, and I think told him to "'eff off out of his office"

16th Sept 2016
After over 2 months of trying to mediate and get the union to actually act, even a reply from the head rep, I finally drafted all of the info that had already been in my email chain in to one big forum grievance, and fire it off to the head union man. Guess what? As soon as I got to work I he came over, and a meeting was scheduled for that day within 2 hours. (he still never replied to the email)

16th Sept 2016 Meeting with Unite head rep, local rep, me, and manager
The manage played the dumb card. Denied there was even an issue, denied he knew he'd given other people time off after telling me there was none allowed. Denied giving my own mate one of my refused days. He actuated ask me why I didn't tell him what I needed it for, because then he would have 'sorted it'. Head union man, who was representing us both by the way, dropped the old "well, if you proceed with this, you never know what might come out". I took that as a subtle threat, and my local rep tells me this scares most people off. I felt they were on the back foot. I saw the manager 15 mins later who admitted to me he was wrong. Knowing this man, this must have killed him, and was an attempt to stop me pushing the grievance I believe. They agreed to speak to a higher manager, to get my holiday granted. How grateful I must be?

The next day I told my rep to make sure the grievance goes in.

Oct 2016 (around 10th I think)
My holiday for later in the month was granted by allegedly my managers manager, but in reality it was a supervisor below my own manager, who's signed it, and I have the copy" I still have my originals declined....somewhere. I know these could be important, so I will get these together.

Oct 2016 (around 24th)
I took my holidays, went to my docs, explode the situation in full, and he advised not to return until this issue has come to a conclusion. I have not returned to work since.

Nov 2016
Referred to Occy Health, who also agreed time off required. And also requested that a management meeting take place to allay some of my fears.

Dec 2016 (around 7th)
I was contacted by off-site, head office HR, enquiring why my grievance had ended up at another plant. And that due to this there would be a 'delay'

Jan 2017
Received a letter requesting my attendance at an absence review meeting around the 18th Jan with my manager (a new manager), his manager, and my local union rep. 3 of the 4 stated in the letter were there. The managers manager was not, even though it was in his office. What was the point? I had requested an update on my issue from the new manager who contacted HR. He connected me on the 13th Feb to say he's still awaiting a reply from HR. Near 1 month later.
Now in between here, friends on the inside tell me I have 'lost my job', in the job I do, not my employment. They took my head off the count on that section. The manager I have my issue with is also back on the area.

April 2017 (late)
I contacted my last management point of contact, the new manager, and told him to put the wheel is motion for my return please. He did not reply. (this method was a prior acceptable, and agreed method of contact. A text message)
So I fired a 'not happy' email to the head union rep. Nothing that could get me in trouble, but basically that I am not happy at the speed of this, that I pay my subs, and that I am not being supported, that I wanted to return to work soon, and how do I go about it.
He replied, "contact your manager, go back to your job", and "I'll ask the local rep for an update"
So, Ive got to now contact the manager I have the issue with, and sit there with him in a back to work interview asking me "why I've been off work". Nah, I went to the docs and was declared unfit again.





I have also been advised to put a claim for stress in by a friend. The problem is that the solicitor is paid for by the union, so I suspect there may be a conflict of interest there, and the union have played a massive part in delaying this I believe. I have also been burnt by the union in the past with legal fee's, which cost me after being forced to going private for an issue over 10 years ago with another employer (which I won btw). If I do put a stress claim in, do I put it in in the middle of my stress, or when I finally return?

Honestly, if you break an arm, you know when it will heel. Stress on the other hand, this is a horrible thing.
Im the kind of person that would have laughed at the thought of this 12 months ago.

[ULA]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

Maybe one way to try and unravel this situation is to understand what you want to achieve. Is it a return to work and a resolution of your grievance now or in the near future? If so you need to find a way of approaching your employer about doing this and I would suggest that would be best done via your HR department due to the issues you have in the relationship with your manager and make this clear to HR. This would need to be in conjunction with your GP stating that you are fit to return to work. Your GP may actually be able to support any strategy for you to return to work by detailing for your employer any actions they may be able to undertake to help facilitate a return to work e.g. part time working, change of duties, gradual increase of hours etc. If you have confidence that you can get your Union rep to support this then it would be good for you to have them with you at any initial meeting you have with HR to discuss a return to work. As part of the return to work you can also establish how they are going to deal with the grievance which as far as you are concerned remains unresolved and has been a contributory factor to your ill health.


In regard to a claim for stress this is a complex area of law and not my area of expertise, however even if you may have experienced a difficult time at work and you may be left with a stress-related illness that does not necessarily mean you will be able to make a claim. As very general guidance what you need to know is that

• Most jobs can cause some degree of stress from time-to-time – a compensation claim can only be brought in more extreme cases where a recognised psychiatric illness such as clinical depression has occurred
• Any claim will need to show that an illness has been clearly caused by the stress at work – this may require the need for a specialist to provide a report not just one from your GP
• There would need to be evidence that your employer was at fault – that they not only ‘exposed’ you to the stressful situation but that they knew (or ought to have predicted) that the stress could lead to your illness
• It needs to be demonstrated that your employer was specifically made aware of the problems you were facing at work – for example that you were not coping with the volume or type of work
• And having shown that your employer knew of your situation they failed to adequately help you

As to the merits of making such a claim I cannot provide any support for you on this but maybe the above general information will provide something to think about.

[SAPFO]

Re: Refused Holidays At Work

Maybe one way to try and unravel this situation is to understand what you want to achieve. Is it a return to work and a resolution of your grievance now or in the near future? If so you need to find a way of approaching your employer about doing this and I would suggest that would be best done via your HR department due to the issues you have in the relationship with your manager and make this clear to HR. This would need to be in conjunction with your GP stating that you are fit to return to work. Your GP may actually be able to support any strategy for you to return to work by detailing for your employer any actions they may be able to undertake to help facilitate a return to work e.g. part time working, change of duties, gradual increase of hours etc. If you have confidence that you can get your Union rep to support this then it would be good for you to have them with you at any initial meeting you have with HR to discuss a return to work. As part of the return to work you can also establish how they are going to deal with the grievance which as far as you are concerned remains unresolved and has been a contributory factor to your ill health.

Up to this date, 9 months later, the grievance has still not been dealt with against this manager.

In regard to a claim for stress this is a complex area of law and not my area of expertise, however even if you may have experienced a difficult time at work and you may be left with a stress-related illness that does not necessarily mean you will be able to make a claim. As very general guidance what you need to know is that

• Most jobs can cause some degree of stress from time-to-time – a compensation claim can only be brought in more extreme cases where a recognised psychiatric illness such as clinical depression has occurred
• Any claim will need to show that an illness has been clearly caused by the stress at work – this may require the need for a specialist to provide a report not just one from your GP
• There would need to be evidence that your employer was at fault – that they not only ‘exposed’ you to the stressful situation but that they knew (or ought to have predicted) that the stress could lead to your illness
• It needs to be demonstrated that your employer was specifically made aware of the problems you were facing at work – for example that you were not coping with the volume or type of work
• And having shown that your employer knew of your situation they failed to adequately help you

As to the merits of making such a claim I cannot provide any support for you on this but maybe the above general information will provide something to think about.

I told my union last July that this situation was causing me severe stress in an email to the head union man, which was is my method of complaint against a manager. The fact it was not resolved led me to sign-off from work at the start of November, and the fact it has still not been resolved, even to this date, is causing me even more stress. Why are they not doing anything about it? I feel I am fighting against the union, & the company, who lets be honest, are all but one these days.

I just spoke with a solicitor who also said the manager would have to have known he was causing you stress. Surely declining a holiday, and then giving other colleagues holidays, in and around the the same period you were declined, is enough to cause a stressful situation? In the end, the holiday was authorised by someone else.