Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 months

[JimboCP]

Hi in advance to everyone on this forum.

I purchased a 2013 reg car for roughly £12k in September 2016 with 54,000 miles on the clock and in early January 2017 now on 60,000 miles the car suffered catastrophic engine failure. It was towed to a garage by the AA and diagnosed with a seized engine.

The supplying dealer does not want to know. I did not take out their warranty for an additional sum. I have had no repair work done to the car but the initial diagnosis is not good pointing toward partial or complete new engine required which fits in with what the AA said when they towed me to the garage. The car has not and cannot be driven since.

The car is on finance. I have informed the finance company and started a complaints process which they inform me they have 8 weeks to conclude.

4 weeks in and i am yet to have any constructive feedback/updates on progress and I am more than a bit worried, in fact besides myself with worry.

I have rented hire cars to date, needing a car as most of us do for work and parental duties. l literally can't do without a car.

My problems are I wont be able to afford the rental hire cost and finance cost on my broken car indefinitely and I am extremely worried that the finance company and supplying dealer aren't going to come up with anything particularly helpful at the end of the 8 weeks.

Given the urgent need too stay in a car I might have to buy a second car, on finance. I can't make do with a cheap run around as I do a lot of miles and really rely on my car working (ironic I know).

I am very very desperate at the situation and would be so so grateful for any advice. I can't sleep and this is making me ill.

I am maintaining my finance payments but If i were to buy a second car on finance (without which I may not be able to work) should I try to continue to keep my payments up to date on the broken car or refuse to pay anything further towards it to the finance company who have financed the broken car, or is that a massive no no? I just have a feeling given their apparent disinterest to date that I'm not going to like what they say at the end of the 8 weeks. Also while I'm continuing to pay them I wonder it makes them less concerned about fighting my corner i.e they are still getting their money so don't care.

I am a totally genuine and hardworking person that has tried to do the right thing but wondered if anyone could give me any advice.

Would be eternally grateful for any help.

Many thanks.

JimboCP

[des8]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

hi and welcome
don't despair
youhave the right to reject this vehicle under the cra2015
i have to go out right now and not back till late p m
if no one else has postedin the mean time i'll get back then [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] will help if he's around

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Many thanks. Really do appreciate your help.

[glarge1234]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Continue to make the finance payments as failure will impact you credit score.

What reason has been given for the engine failure, was it lack of oil or a specific part that failed??

Important to know to ascertain whether the fault was there in collection.

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Many thanks for the reply.

The engine is seized. That was established are the initial diagnostics by the garage the car was towed to.

The engine has normal oil levels. It was serviced 6k miles ago by the selling dealer who also replaced the cam belt and water pump as part of the sale agreement when selling the car to me.

To establish the exact cause/issue would require taking the engine apart. I am not going to pay for this/have it done until instructed/authorised to do so by the selling dealer or finance company. I am worried that should the car be touched further the selling dealer will claim the car has been repaired/worked on and refuse any liability. It is clear though from the AA and initial diagnostics from the independent garage the car was towed to that it something major.

Thanks

[glarge1234]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Have you asked the garage to see details of any remedial work they did prior to delivery to you either in the form of a workshop job sheet, if this indicates they did some engine work you could argue that the fault was there on collection, as I see it at the minute your at a stalemate and unfortunately you have to prove the fault was there when you took delivery of the vehicle to reject the vehicle and demand your money back according to the consumer rights act.

Did you buy the vehicle from a main dealer, if so write to there head office and escalate the problem, chances are the powers that be will capitulate when it comes to customer rejection requests.

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

No but I do have the sales agreement and stamped service book saying that they have serviced the car and replaced the cam belt, waterpump and tensioners. The car was not bought from a main dealer.

Am i right in thinking if the fault developed within the fiirst six months of purchase then thee 2015 CRA says that the fault is assumed to be present at sale and the onus is on them to prove to the contary?

The finance company on starting their 8 week investigation/complaints process said they would liaise with the selling dealer (albeit it as in my first post am yet to hear of anything happening at all).

Stalemate does feel the word for it but unfortunately I need to get a car sorted fairly quickly otherwise I will have big problems with getting to work etc.

Such a desperate situation.

[glarge1234]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Have you sent a letter to the dealer as per below rejecting the vehicle, this should hurry them along some what, in addition if they replaced cambelt etc this proves they repaired the engine prior to delivery to you.

[Your address]
Manager/ Owner
Dealership address

Dear Sir/ Madam
Ref: [registration number of vehicle]

On [date] I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle [make and model] from you. On [date] I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: [describe the problem].


The Consumer Rights Act 2015 requires dealers to supply goods of satisfactory quality.

However, the vehicle is clearly unroadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.

I am legally entitled to reject the vehicle and to be reimbursed for its full purchase price of [£xx]. I look forward to receiving your cheque for this sum within 14 days. If you fail to reimburse me I shall have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money without further reference to you.

Yours faithfully


[Your name and signature]

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Thank you very much.

Do you know, willl this compromise what the finance company are doing?

Similarly is it ok/correct to request repayment to me although the car is technically owned by the finance company. Do i physically need to return the car at the time i send the letter and should i copy the letter to the finance company.

Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks

[R0b]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Picking apart the information you have provided so far, here's my initial view, and some questions.

First of all, the dealer has no obligation to you where the car is on finance. This is because two transactions take place, (1) the finance company will purchase the car from the dealer and will own it outright and (2) the finance company then hires the car out to you on the agreed terms (unless it is a conditional sale).

Now, you've said that you have made a complaint, what did you put in the complaint to the finance company, did you mention at all that you were rejecting by the car or you wanted it repaired?

What exactly was their response to your complaint? On the face of it, it doesn't sound as if you have rejected the car on the basis that it is faulty. It would be helpful if you can use upload the complaint and response with your personal info removed, so that we can see what we are dealing with.

If you've not heard anything from the finance company in 4 weeks, I would be inclined to write a further letter to them explaining that it has been 4 weeks with no response and given the seriousness of the matter they appear to be taking their time. You should also put them on notice that you have had to hire a car for work and personal purposes if you have asked them to repair it. Even though you have made a complaint about the car, they are still under a legal obligation to carry out the repairs within a reasonable time - 4 weeks would not be considered reasonable but it has also inconvenienced you.

In that respect if you have asked the finance company to repair it, then you could actually reject the car and request a refund of all your monies paid, less usage. Equally the purpose of telling them about hiring a car is to put them on notice of the significance of their delays and allowing you to reserve the right to claim damages against them which is in addition to your right to reject or repair.

Finally has anyone told you how or why the car has seized up? The reason I ask is that you said the car was serviced by the dealer and parts repaired as part of the agreement. I'm not a mechanic but is it possible that the engine seizure was caused as a direct result of the dealer servicing / carrying out repairs? If so, then there's an argument that the service and/or repairs were not carried out with reasonable skill and care. Perhaps [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] could answer that one or assist.

Before you start writing any letters to the finance company, it may be worth responding to some of the above questions because it may affect what you put in your letter.

One last question, did you pay any deposit by credit card over £100?

I may have missed some points off but I'll take another look later tonight.

[glarge1234]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

This will not compromise anything the finance company are doing, there job is to work with you to ensure you have a fit vehicle as per your finance agreement.

You will be entitled to return of any deposits paid and return of the part exchange (or equivalent cash value)

Return the vehicle if you haven't already to the supplying dealer at the same time you deliver the letter to them, a copy of the rejection letter should also go to the finance company.

This should then prompt them to either action the rejection, they may offer to fix the car at this time. If you do not want this remedy then simply REJECT there request it at this point, if you allow them to repair it, rejection will be more difficult should the fault occur again.

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Picking apart the information you have provided so far, here's my initial view, and some questions.

First of all, the dealer has no obligation to you where the car is on finance. This is because two transactions take place, (1) the finance company will purchase the car from the dealer and will own it outright and (2) the finance company then hires the car out to you on the agreed terms (unless it is a conditional sale).

Now, you've said that you have made a complaint, what did you put in the complaint to the finance company, did you mention at all that you were rejecting by the car or you wanted it repaired?

What exactly was their response to your complaint? On the face of it, it doesn't sound as if you have rejected the car on the basis that it is faulty. It would be helpful if you can use upload the complaint and response with your personal info removed, so that we can see what we are dealing with.

If you've not heard anything from the finance company in 4 weeks, I would be inclined to write a further letter to them explaining that it has been 4 weeks with no response and given the seriousness of the matter they appear to be taking their time. You should also put them on notice that you have had to hire a car for work and personal purposes if you have asked them to repair it. Even though you have made a complaint about the car, they are still under a legal obligation to carry out the repairs within a reasonable time - 4 weeks would not be considered reasonable but it has also inconvenienced you.

In that respect if you have asked the finance company to repair it, then you could actually reject the car and request a refund of all your monies paid, less usage. Equally the purpose of telling them about hiring a car is to put them on notice of the significance of their delays and allowing you to reserve the right to claim damages against them which is in addition to your right to reject or repair.

Finally has anyone told you how or why the car has seized up? The reason I ask is that you said the car was serviced by the dealer and parts repaired as part of the agreement. I'm not a mechanic but is it possible that the engine seizure was caused as a direct result of the dealer servicing / carrying out repairs? If so, then there's an argument that the service and/or repairs were not carried out with reasonable skill and care. Perhaps @des8 could answer that one or assist.

Before you start writing any letters to the finance company, it may be worth responding to some of the above questions because it may affect what you put in your letter.

One last question, did you pay any deposit by credit card over £100?

I may have missed some points off but I'll take another look later tonight.

Rob

Firstly many thanks for the detailed response.

The complain't was a phone call to the finance company on the morning after the breakdown. It was verbal to their customer services department, they said their complaints department would follow it up. A week later and hearing nothing i contacted their complaints department. Who emailed me their standard receipt of a complaint letter.

I responded by email with a detailed time line of everything that had happened from the moment of breakdown, together with copies of diagnostic report, sales invoice, copies of service book.

I have maintained in the timeline details of conversations and kept all emails sent and received since. I have also provided photographic proof of the cars mileage.

Their response was to remind me of their right to take up to 8 weeks to resolve this (all they have done so far) and that they are forwarding everything on to the credit brokers to start a compliant with the supplying dealer. This was three weeks ago and 4 weeks after I first contacted the finance company following breakdown.

I have chased the complaints person dealing with my case twice since who reiterates that they deal with cases in the order they arise, that they have 8 weeks and when they can update me with any news they will, nothing more.

To clarify the finance companies only response to date is that they have 8 weeks to investigate and are tasking the finance brokers with the equal task of mediating with the selling car dealer.

I have pleaded with them that i am hiring cars whilst maintaining my finance repayments and it is crippling. All they did was to remind me that the T&C's on the fiance agreement state that they cannot be held liable for finance costs in the event the car has a fault.

I have not informed the finance company to date of a specific resolution that I am seeking other than i need as car on the road and I can't/won't pay for the substantial repairs this car clearly requires. On mentioning rejecting the car on initially contacting the finance company they replied I can't as i have had it over one month.

I did pay a deposit on a card. I will check right away if it was on a debit or credit card.

Thank you again for your assistance, I can't tell you how much it means to have the support I have received so far on this forum.

Thanks

[JimboCP]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Thanks Glarge

[des8]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

Could you tell us what type of finance deal you have?

In post 1 you said the supplying dealer did not want to know.
What exactly was said/emailed between you?


As you told the finance house you were rejecting the car it seems they forgot about your final right to reject which has a six month time limit!(CRA 2015 2 .24)

Regarding the engine seizure you answered my first concerns by confirming ol and coolant levels were correct!
Next thought is was the cam belt actually replaced, or replaced incorrectly>
From there move to broken con rods etc....

But that is not your concern.
If a vehicle breaks down in the six months following sale it is assumed the fault was present at the time of sale unless the dealer can prove otherwise.

[R0b]

Re: Help desperateley needed - Car break/failure rights - owned for less than 5 month

The complain't was a phone call to the finance company on the morning after the breakdown. It was verbal to their customer services department, they said their complaints department would follow it up. A week later and hearing nothing i contacted their complaints department. Who emailed me their standard receipt of a complaint letter.

When making complaints, it is wise try to keep everything in writing as it is easier to prove what was said than verbally, and make sure to keep all correspondence safe, including any letters you have sent to them.

Their response was to remind me of their right to take up to 8 weeks to resolve this (all they have done so far) and that they are forwarding everything on to the credit brokers to start a compliant with the supplying dealer. This was three weeks ago and 4 weeks after I first contacted the finance company following breakdown.

I have chased the complaints person dealing with my case twice since who reiterates that they deal with cases in the order they arise, that they have 8 weeks and when they can update me with any news they will, nothing more.

If it is a business decision to deal with complaints on a first come first serve basis, that is the finance company's prerogative, but it doesn't absolve them of their right to carry out any repairs or replacements within a reasonable time which doesn't inconvenience you. This is found under section 23(6) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

Section 23(2)
If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must:
(a) do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer, and
(b) bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

I have pleaded with them that i am hiring cars whilst maintaining my finance repayments and it is crippling. All they did was to remind me that the T&C's on the fiance agreement state that they cannot be held liable for finance costs in the event the car has a fault.

Arguably, you could claim that the clause is an unfair contract term because under the CRA they have certain obligations as above, and if they choose not to prioritise issues such as yours where the car has been sitting around for some time, then it is reasonable to claim damages which stem from a direct result of the failure to act.

I have not informed the finance company to date of a specific resolution that I am seeking other than i need as car on the road and I can't/won't pay for the substantial repairs this car clearly requires. On mentioning rejecting the car on initially contacting the finance company they replied I can't as i have had it over one month.

It could be implied that you wanted them to repair the car and not pay for the costs of doing so and again, any reliance by them on the clause above is void and unenforceable.

I have not informed the finance company to date of a specific resolution that I am seeking other than i need as car on the road and I can't/won't pay for the substantial repairs this car clearly requires. On mentioning rejecting the car on initially contacting the finance company they replied I can't as i have had it over one month.

The above is factually and legally wrong.

I did pay a deposit on a card. I will check right away if it was on a debit or credit card.

The reason why I ask if paid on card is because if the deposit was £100 or more, then you could have a claim against your credit card company under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. By paying this way, your credit card company is jointly liable along with the finance company for any breach of contract or misrepresentation, and you may fare better with them than the finance company you are dealing with. So always wise when purchasing something valuable such as a car, buying plane tickets etc. always pay by credit card for the added protection.

I would wait Des's comments before anything further.