Marks and Spencer credit card

[robby7307]

Hello
First this M & S Credit card is not a store card then converted to a credit card without me asking.
I have read on this forum about the 4 corner rule with regards to a credit card agreement but I am still not clear Does it mean all the terms etc have to be on the same sheet or the same page ? In my case I have a copy of the agreement send to me by the DCA the page with my signature on has very little and does not refer to any other documents it is also not signed by M&S BUT they have sent a separate sheet which I believe covers everything. The thing is they have had many years to polish up what is put on the reverse and they could of made up the T & C last week because the ones I signed were in 2004 not enforceable.
Thank you for your help

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Is there anyone there to help please ?

[pt2537]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Can you perhaps let us know if there are any points of dispute between yourself and M&S?

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Hello again pt2537 again Thank you for your help No disputes But I have read on this and other Forums about pre 2007 agreements but the interpretation of the law is not easy for a layman such as me for example I have read that if the signature is within a box then the 4 corners are within that box I find that difficult to believe and can not see any judge agreeing with that one ?
Thats why I asked the question to clarify................. Does it mean all the terms etc have to be on the same sheet or the same page ? In my case I have a copy of the agreement send to me by the DCA the page with my signature on has very little and does not refer to any other documents it is also not signed by M&S BUT they have sent a separate sheet which I believe covers everything. The thing is they have had many years to polish up what is put on the reverse and they could of made up the T & C last week because the ones I signed were in 2004 not enforceable.

[pt2537]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Hello again pt2537 again Thank you for your help No disputes But I have read on this and other Forums about pre 2007 agreements but the interpretation of the law is not easy for a layman such as me for example I have read that if the signature is within a box then the 4 corners are within that box I find that difficult to believe and can not see any judge agreeing with that one ?
Thats why I asked the question to clarify................. Does it mean all the terms etc have to be on the same sheet or the same page ? In my case I have a copy of the agreement send to me by the DCA the page with my signature on has very little and does not refer to any other documents it is also not signed by M&S BUT they have sent a separate sheet which I believe covers everything. The thing is they have had many years to polish up what is put on the reverse and they could of made up the T & C last week because the ones I signed were in 2004 not enforceable.

Hi

I think that perhaps its better to focus on the broader picture, many people zoom in on the missing prescribed terms angle but there are often other failings which can leave a creditor open to challenge.

The points you raise are sadly quite complicated issues, they are summarized however in Carey v HSBC see para 173 and 234.

[EXC]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

The points you raise are sadly quite complicated issues, they are summarized however in Carey v HSBC see para 173 and 234.

For ref http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Thank you again pt2537
I am now even more lost reading the Carey v HSBC from what I read basically you can have an agreement with almost nothing on the front apart from name address etc and on the back you can have want suits for example if a court decided at the top you had xxxxxxx then terms and conditions could be made to meet the needs.
I still don't understand ( sorry to sound thick here ) on the front does it have to refer to the back ? and what does 4 corners mean the front with the signature and the reverse ? or just the front ? so taking it to the extreme you could have a signature on the front and nothing else and everything on the back. what do you mean with focus on the broader picture ?

[pt2537]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

What i mean by broader picture is that creditors often make errors with other paperwork. Consumers often focus on the prescribed terms point without looking at whether there are other issues of non compliance.

The problem you have it seems to me is a very fact specific issue, what you should really be asking yourself is what did you sign when the account was opened? As that will lead you to the answers as to whether it complied with the Consumer Credit Act

[Joanna C]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

Thank you again pt2537
I am now even more lost reading the Carey v HSBC from what I read basically you can have an agreement with almost nothing on the front apart from name address etc and on the back you can have want suits for example if a court decided at the top you had
then terms and conditions could be made to meet the needs.
I still don't understand ( sorry to sound thick here ) on the front does it have to refer to the back ? and what does 4 corners mean the front with the signature and the reverse ? or just the front ? so taking it to the extreme you could have a signature on the front and nothing else and everything on the back. what do you mean with focus on the broader picture ?

The Carey v HSBC case was one of mine when I was head of consumer credit litigation at MSB so I know the documents HH Waksman was referring to in reaching his decision. S.78 is for information purposes only to inform the borrower of the terms of his/ her agreement. The proof purpose is different and where the borrower requires the claimant to prove the terms of the signed agreement they have to.

The four corners means that there has to be a clear connection with the documentation . There are different regulations depending on when the agreement was entered into as to whether the prescribed terms/ key financial information have to be grouped together on the the agreement with signature or whether the signature can be on the front and the prescribed terms are on the back . However in the latter there has to be clear linkage for the proof purpose.

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

[MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION];
By way of an update I was taken to court, stupid I know I thought I was home and dry the copy agreement was mostly unreadable the only bits that could be read was the hand written items and a few bits in bold it was signed in 2004 by myself but not by M & S the box I signed in had writing which looked like a thick line the only I could go on about what was said but the long and short was the Judge said you have had the money and you have made payments so judgement in favor of the claimant he was not interested in anything I had to say. To be fair the statement you have had the money and you have made payments is a fair comment but its not the law is it ?

[MIKE770]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

usual tract by these so called fair minded DJs, of course in any appeal they are stated as "Misdirected themselves" just as bad as Bankers sorry we made mass mistakes and get away with it.

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

I know what your saying MIKE770 the bit I don't get is how can a Judge, Judge if he / she doesn't how the law ?? As I said I understand the statement you have had the money and you have made payments is a fair comment but its not the law is it ? If I was asked to Judge something I would like to think I would Know what I'm doing. Any thoughts pt2537 ,
Joanna C

[MIKE770]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

unfortunately that is the way judges work, they are given a case and pretend not to know much on subject ) therefore the evidence they work on is only what is produced in front of them (2nd rate justice ?) they even after they say did you have the monies many treat you as a person trying to get out of paying, in these cases they operate on the edge of the law, meantime without stating any more I am awaiting response from MPs on the subject of law and judges determinations/ etc

[robby7307]

Re: Marks and Spencer credit card

MIKE770 thanks for the reply good to know I'm not the only one its happened to.