Voluntary Termination

[justask4lottie]

Hi

I had a lease car from Hippo leasing but the credit was through Barclays. After a couple of years my circumstances changed and I could no longer afford the £165 payments per month. I rang Barclays and they advised that as I was over half way through my contract I could do a voluntary termination and once the car had been dropped off no further payments would be taken and to cancel my direct debit.

I was advised to take the car to Manheim in Leeds which I did in November last year. When I got to their site I went to one office who told me to go to another office. I got to the second office and explained that I was returning a lease car and that a lady on the phone in the morning had taken my details. The guys there didn’t know anything about it or what to do, so I was sent round to a third office and they also told me they didn’t know anything about it and were very unhelpful. They told me just to hand over both sets of keys and my log book and that I was ok to go. Because I have never had a lease car before I acted upon their instructions and went.

I have since had a letter from Barclays saying that I owe £1155 (which I was very shocked about) which has now been passed to CRS. I have spoken to CRS who have been in touch with Barclays for a breakdown of what this sum is for. They have requested this twice and still awaiting the information.

I rang Barclays this morning and they are saying that the charges are from Manheim and not them and I have requested the breakdown summary for the charges.

When I dropped the car off as far as I was concerned it had no damage to it and I had it cleaned. No inspection was carried out and as I said above a guy at the reception told me to leave the keys and documents and that it was ok. The day after I rang Barclays to explain what had happened as I was really concerned that I just had handed back my car, the keys and log book but didn’t have anything as proof!! Looking back now surely I should have had an inspection in the car as advised.

I am extremely distressed about this, I am a working single mum with 3 children and don’t have this sort of money and if I’d have known they were going to charge me for anything I would have kept the car and not have a large debt.

After reading a few other posts it seems like these companies try and get money out of everyone!!

Charlotte

[Kati]

Re: Voluntary Termination

tagging [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] xx

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hello

First and foremost, whenever there is a dispute or potential dispute, you should always create a paper trail so you can evidence what has been said - it's alot harder to prove when you do things verbally. However, as a point to note, you cannot voluntarily terminate by telephoning Barlcays, it must be done in writing to take effect, though you could argue that by Barclays telling you to take it to Manheim.

Who are CRS? Credit Resolution Services?

I am not entirely sure what the charges would be for, they could either be for any alleged damage beyond reasonable condition of the car or, Manheim may be chasing you for their fees for auctioning the car off. If its the latter then those charges should be directed to Barclays.

Your starting point is to get everything you do in writing, so you should be writing to CRS and saying that you dispute the amount, there is no breakdown of the charges or what they relate to and therefore they need to provide a breakdown and why Manheim think you owe them. Equally, send a letter to Manheim and ask for the same, assuming you have some kind of reference number to give to them.

I can't be much help until we know what the charges are for.

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Thanks Rob. I think Barclays sent paper work which I had to sign and send back and then I had so many weeks to get the car to Manheim.

Yes CRS are the Credit Resolution Service. It wasn't until around 6 weeks after I had dropped the car off that I get this bill but it didn't state what the charges were for so obviously was shocked when I got it.

I have spoken to CRS and they have put a couple of holds on the account but they said the charges are from Barclays and they had requested a breakdown twice now and thats when I decided to contact Barclays myself who then said that the charges are from Manheim so I am waiting from a response from them and I am pretty confused to be honest.

I will make sure I get paper copies of everything and names etc.

I actually emailed BVRLA who sent me the email below:

As the BVRLA is a membership organisation with Codes of Conduct, we are only have jurisdiction to look into complaints against member companies. Unfortunately Barclays are not registered with the BVRLA as a leasing or leasing broker company and therefore we would be unable to offer our conciliation service to look into this matter.

However, if the finance has been provided by Barclays but the vehicle itself was provided by another company (e.g. Arval, Lex Autolease) then we may be able to look into this if the vehicle supplier is a BVRLA member. The

Whilst I am unaware of the relationship between Barclays and Manheim, if the vehicle had been supplied by a BVRLA member company then typically Manheim would not be invoicing for the cost of repairs. Manheim would carry out an inspection and provide the report to the leasing company, who would then generate an invoice in-line with their internal cost matrix for any damage to the vehicle, highlighted in the inspection report.

If the vehicle was supplied directly by Barclays, I would recommend that you get in contact with your local Citizens Advice Bureau for further information on how to escalate your complaint; this may be with an ombudsman service or another alternative dispute resolution service.

Kind regards,

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Perhaps you may want to kickstart a formal complaint to Barclays as they seem to be sending you round the houses. If you signed some paperwork by Barclays then I would be inclined to think that the charges would be coming from Barclays and not Manheim direct, in line with what BVRLA has suggested.

If you do a formal complaint you should outline a brief history and where you are up to now, including that you are being told conflicting information. Barclays have up to 8 weeks to provide a final response otherwise you can take it to the Financial Ombudsman.

Happy to look over a complaint before you send it off if need be

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

UPDATE -

I phoned Barclays who then advised me that I needed to speak to Manheim and now I have been passed back to Barclays. All they have sent me is a statement of accounts which shows how much the car sold for and that the balance was then zero but then at the bottom it just states wear and tear £1155 but does not show any kind of breakdown.

I have spoken to Barclays AGAIN and they said they will send me a letter out with breakdown costs. Surely they should have just done this in November?

I am going to dispute it as I dropped it off in good condition and the car was sold at a good price. My issue is that there was never a check done and I didn't sign any paper work when I dropped it off which I found bizarre. I'm not sure where I stand with this but I have read somewhere that a check should have been done and both parties are supposed to agree and paperwork signed before leaving the car?

I have been waiting for the break down of charges before issuing a formal complaint. Luckily CRS keep putting a hold on my account for me until I get answers.

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi

I have now received the inspection report and in need of some advice please:

They inspected the car over a month after I returned it. (I could scan the document if needed)

They say that I only handed 1 key in - not true
It had no MOT - not true
No V5C - Not ture as that was the only thing I signed when I dropped the car off

Someone ran into me last summer and I had the car repaired through the insurance and they are saying that it's been poorly repaired. They are saying that it is rusty and paintwork has chips and there is dirt in the paint.

They also say about scuffed wheels which I do not mind paying for but I do not agree on all the above.

Barclays have sent me back to Manheim as they have said there is nothing that they can do.

Can someone please help me and advise on what to do now?

I have just emailed Manhiem about their complaints procedure but last time I did this the sent me back to Barclays....I seem to be going round in circles

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps you may want to kickstart a formal complaint to Barclays as they seem to be sending you round the houses. If you signed some paperwork by Barclays then I would be inclined to think that the charges would be coming from Barclays and not Manheim direct, in line with what BVRLA has suggested.

If you do a formal complaint you should outline a brief history and where you are up to now, including that you are being told conflicting information. Barclays have up to 8 weeks to provide a final response otherwise you can take it to the Financial Ombudsman.

Happy to look over a complaint before you send it off if need be

Hi

I have now received the inspection report and in need of some advice please:

They inspected the car over a month after I returned it. (I could scan the document if needed)

They say that I only handed 1 key in - not true
It had no MOT - not true
No V5C - Not ture as that was the only thing I signed when I dropped the car off

Someone ran into me last summer and I had the car repaired through the insurance and they are saying that it's been poorly repaired. They are saying that it is rusty and paintwork has chips and there is dirt in the paint.

They also say about scuffed wheels which I do not mind paying for but I do not agree on all the above.

Barclays have sent me back to Manheim as they have said there is nothing that they can do.

Can someone please help me and advise on what to do now?

I have just emailed Manhiem about their complaints procedure but last time I did this the sent me back to Barclays....I seem to be going round in circles

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi Lottie, I am slightly confused why Barclays are referring you to Manheim as if you owe them the money. The finance agreement was between you and Barclays why was administered through Hippo Leasing. You have no contract or arrangement with Manheim other than being told by Barclays to return the car to one of their auction sites.

Therefore on the basis of what you've told me, it is Barclays that owe Manheim not you, though it sounds like they're trying to palm off their expenses and say that you need to pay them instead.

Have you checked your credit report to see if any adverse markers are on there such as a default?

When was the last MOT done? You can actually check the MOT status online by going to https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-status though you will need the registration number and make of the car.

Overall, I think the liability of Manheim costs rests with Barclays, not you.

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi Lottie, I am slightly confused why Barclays are referring you to Manheim as if you owe them the money. The finance agreement was between you and Barclays why was administered through Hippo Leasing. You have no contract or arrangement with Manheim other than being told by Barclays to return the car to one of their auction sites.

Therefore on the basis of what you've told me, it is Barclays that owe Manheim not you, though it sounds like they're trying to palm off their expenses and say that you need to pay them instead.

Have you checked your credit report to see if any adverse markers are on there such as a default?

When was the last MOT done? You can actually check the MOT status online by going to https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-status though you will need the registration number and make of the car.

Overall, I think the liability of Manheim costs rests with Barclays, not you.

Hi Rob

I have spoken to the financial Ombudsman and they are saying I am liable to pay the £1155 which has been passed from Barclays to CRS.

Basically the inspection report came back and it shows that the car was poorly repaired apparently and there is dents in it etc.

My argument is that I took that car to a garage which my insurance company advised me to go to. I am not a mechanic and to my eyes the car was perfect.

It was never inspected whilst I was there and it took them a month to do the inspection and I never signed anything but apparently Barclays or Manheim are not part of the BVRLA and I do not have a leg to stand on. I think it is really unfair and don't know what else to do

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi Lottie,

Did you provide any evidence of the the insurance company telling you to have the car repaired at the garage? does the car look like it had been repaired properly on reasonable inspection? You haven't caused further dents to the car since it has been repaired have you?

Did you take photos of the car before you handed it back? If not, perhaps it is a lesson for next time.

If you did all that was required of you by the insurance company and on reasonable inspection the car was repaired to a reasonable standard, that is all that is required of you. I agree that it is unfair to impose any higher standard when you are the consumer and relied on another to do the work.

The Financial Ombudsman looks at what is fair and reasonable based on the information and evidence before them, so they may not necessarily look at the law when coming to their decision.

Ultimately, what you do next is your choice and only you can decide it. There are really two ways Barclays can go about this, (1) do nothing and perhaps apply a default on your credit file or (2) take you to court to recover the sum. The damage is subjective and if Manheim did the inspection they normally apply the BVRLA standard which is generally used for commercial leasing and hiring of vehicles, the standard of condition is arguably higher than the one set out in the CCA which is reasonable care - the guidelines also do not take into account the age of the vehicle either. Also (and arguably), they are applying guidelines by an association that neither of which are a member of which as I said could amount to a higher standard. For example, BVRLA is not just the only standard that can be used to determine the condition of a car - see the following link for example which may offer a more accurate interpretation of a vehicle's condition https://www.cap.co.uk/media/2354/caphpiconditions.pdf

You may also have a point in that the vehicle inspection was not carried out when you arrived to drop the car off and it took Manheim over a month to inspect it, and on the basis how can they prove that the damage occurred whilst it was in your possession, what if that damage occurred whilst the car was in Manheim's possession? The onus would be on Barclays to prove that and they can't then any claim in respect of those damages ought to be removed.

If you don't wish to stick to your guns and hash it out in court, which can be a risk to do by both sides, you could make an offer of full and final settlement based on what you believe is reasonable and go from there.

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Thank you for speaking to me about your complaint today, I’m writing to confirm our conversation.

your complaint

You’re unhappy with the charges Clydesdale requested of you following voluntary termination of your conditional sale agreement.

I understand that you weren’t present when the vehicle was inspected by Manheim and you felt the charges were unfair.

my findings

I understand you voluntary terminated your conditional sale agreement, taken out on
23 January 2014. You left the car with Manheim on 7 November 2016 and following this you found out Clydesdale was asking for £1,781.56.

Having reviewed the damage assessment from Manheim, I consider the charges applied for paint damage, dents and tyre scuffs are in line with the BVRLA guidelines. The guidelines also say that it’s recommended for the customer to be present when the car is inspected but this isn’t mandatory. Although the charges are quoted as £1,781.56 it appears that the debt has been sold to Credit Resource Solutions (CRS) and the outstanding balance is £1155.00.

I’ve looked at your agreement and the terms and conditions state that:

You must return the vehicle in a good state of repair and condition. If the vehicle is not in good condition when you return it, you must pay our costs to bring it into a good condition or (if we choose) cover the reduction in its value.

I appreciate you’re unhappy with the service received from Manheim and Clydesdale has written to them to advise of your complaint. You may wish to pursue this with Manheim separately as you remain unhappy.

conclusions

As discussed, I won’t be asking Clydesdale to take any action and I’ll now make arrangements to close my file on your complaint.

If you have any questions, please get in touch.

Yours sincerely



- - - Updated - - -

Hi....I am at work right now but will post more info shortly in response to your reply earlier.

Thanks Rob

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi Rob

Thanks for your response.

I took the car back in good clean condition and when I dropped it off it had no dents etc like they are saying. They are trying to say that there is rust and corrosion as well as the poor repairs etc. I would not have taken it back if I thought there was anything major wrong with it. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos

The car was an 11 plate and only had 49000 miles on the clock it had 2 keys, MOT and service history and they only thing I signed in front of Manheim was the log book which they said they didn't have either. What happened with the car from 9th November to 1st December and why did it take so long etc? I have emaile Manheim again and again who pass me back to Barclays and Barclays back to them. I have asked Manheim for more information of the assessment and why it wasn't done in front of me.

The ombudsman basically said Barclays are not part of the BVRLA and don't have to check the car whilst I am there. I have a copy of the agreement which states:

Please note that your vehicle will be examined in line of BVRLA guidelines, our representative will need to check and agree the vehicle condition with you.

It also says:

When the vehicle is delivered/collected, representatives of Barclays Partner Finance and you must check and AGREE on the vehicle condition and be asked to sign the sheet by way of agreement of the assessment.

Barclays have closed my complaint which wasn't an official complaint in the first place. I was asking for the information of why I had been charged so much and was chasing that up as they didn't send it to CRS who asked for it on numerous occasions and still haven't got it today. It's taken them from December to give me this information and the inspection report.

I felt like the Ombudsman didn't get enough information from me and they have closed my case and again I had to chase up with them to what was happening.

I am not sure what to do or where to go now. My account is on hold for another 30 days with CRS who has been really good.

Shall I get legal advice or go to Citizens Advice??

What would happen if they took me to court??

Thank you for you help

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Hi Lottie,

I'll take a look at your post in more detail this evening when I have more time.

[justask4lottie]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Thank you that's much appreciated Rob

Lottie

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary Termination

Its a shame you didn't take photos, but a lesson learnt to make sure to do it next time - better safe than sorry!

I can't really add much to what I've already said above, and you have to decide what's reasonable and what it not. Here's a summary of what I think:

1. It is arguable that the BVRLA guidelines cannot apply in this case, because the car is used for personal purposes, and the guidelines appear to be used in cases where the car is brand new, it doesn't take into account the age of it. The more appropriate test would be the CAP HPI conditions guide on the link I provided.

2. As a hirer of the car, you are obliged to take reasonable care of the goods. So if the car has been in an accident and the insurers have instructed you to have it repaired at one of their preferred garages, then there is a reasonable presumption that the car has been fixed to a reasonable standard required. Therefore your obligations would have been discharged as you are only required to do what is necessary to keep the car running.

3. Why did Manheim not carry out the inspection when you were present, and why did it take them over a month to do so? The onus would be on CRS to prove that the damaged was caused by you whilst in your possession, and not by Manheim whilst sitting around in their warehouse somewhere or due to their negligence. There is a case called Brady v St Margaret's Trust in which the Court stated that, the lender must provide evidence of the car's condition at the time of taking possession and at the end of handing it back, showing how far the borrower has defaulted under it. If they can't prove that, then they shouldn't be able to claim for it as there is a lack of proof.

4. The clause saying that you must agree to the condition report is probably an unfair term, because there's nothing that says you must sign it agreeing or disagreeing. When you read it, the clause appears to suggest that you must sign and agree to any damage, even if you don't agree with it.

What are your thoughts on the damage report, is there anything that you think is fair and reasonable? It may be worth going to Citizen's Advice but their knowledge may be limited and their appointment times can be a lengthy wait, worth finding out though.

In terms of taking you to court, it would be your opportunity to defend the matter, though it is possible that the judge may not agree with all or some of the charges alleged. If the judgment is against you then you will have to pay what is ordered, unless you appeal it. Have you checked your credit report to see if a default has been applied by Barclays or CRS? You can check for free by going to www.noddle.co.uk.

If a default has been applied, it is possible to potentially set off any sums they allege is owed by bringing a counterclaim for breach of the Data Protection Act. The ICO has set out guidelines about when creditors should report a default on your credit report, but the gist of it is that they should not report one if there is a genuine dispute or the debt alleged is made up of solely fees and charges i.e. the condition report.

Is the £1,100 made up solely of damages to the car or is it something else? There is nothing stopping you from going through the report and seeing whats fair and reasonable and then making an offer of full and final settlement, perhaps briefly explaining why you do not agree with the charges and payable instalments. Going to court is not for everyone, which can be stressful so you have to weigh up your options and what you would prefer to do.