CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

[sidley]

I have sent Halifax a CCA request several times over the past year, which they seem to be ignoring! This card was taken out in the late 1980's so, I'm guessing they are having difficulties retrieving any documentation. I have spoken to the Financial Ombudsman and they say they cannot force a company to produce documentation they do not have. If I raise a complaint with them they can only ask the same way I have.

They have not sold the account, they have passed it on to a DCA to manage the account who are now demanding a massive increase in the monthly payments. Without the contract I do not now what my rights are.

So, what should I do next?

Thanks in anticipation

sidley

[Kirjava]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Hi Sidley,

Have you had any luck in sorting this out yet?
If not I can provide some advice if you are still in need.

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

I've had a response to my Halifax CCA request eventually.

In the letter they state "they will not engage in any further correspondence regarding the CCA". They also state that they will hand this account over to a collections agency (they've already done that - apparently sold it) if I do not keep up with repayments? WHAT REPAYMENTS.

Anyway, the cca reponse was a computer (word doc type) of a credit card agreement which they stated was a recon of the original agreement. No dates and wrong address - when I applied for the card I lived at a different address. I don't know if that is relevant?

Also the agreement goes on to say about online banking. When I took out this card, online banking did not exist! On the alleged agreement it also says Lloyds Bank - they were completely separate businesses back then. So, the agreement is not a copy or true reconstruction of the original.

They only sent me the current T&C's as they stated that "they do not have to supply the original T&C's at inception anymore"?
I haven't checked yet but I'm assuming that the charges and interest will not be the ones from the original agreement.

Nothing is signed or dated ( I know for a CCA request a signature is not needed) but I have no idea what date this agreement came from other than the points I have made above.

I want to make an official complaint to them regarding there apparent failure. Has anyone got any suggestions?

Thanks in advance
Sidley

[sidley]

HALIFAX CCA request for card taken out in the late 1980's

I've had a response to my Halifax CCA request eventually.

In the letter they state "they will not engage in any further correspondence regarding the CCA request". They also state that they will hand this account over to a collections agency (they've already done that - apparently sold it) if I do not keep up with repayments? WHAT REPAYMENTS.

Anyway, the cca reponse was a computer (word doc type) of a credit card agreement which they stated was a recon of the original agreement. No dates and wrong address - when I applied for the card I lived at a different address. I don't know if that is relevant?

Also the agreement goes on to say about online banking. When I took out this card, online banking did not exist! On the alleged agreement it also says Lloyds Bank - they were completely separate businesses back then. So, the agreement is not a copy or true reconstruction of the original.

They only sent me the current T&C's as they stated that "they do not have to supply the original T&C's at inception anymore"?
I haven't checked yet but I'm assuming that the charges and interest will not be the ones from the original agreement.

Nothing is signed or dated ( I know for a CCA request a signature is not needed) but I have no idea what date this agreement came from other than the points I have made above.

I want to make an official complaint to them regarding there apparent failure. Has anyone got any suggestions?

Thanks in advance
Sidley

[nemesis45]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

I've had a response to my Halifax CCA request eventually.

In the letter they state "they will not engage in any further correspondence regarding the CCA". They also state that they will hand this account over to a collections agency (they've already done that - apparently sold it) if I do not keep up with repayments? WHAT REPAYMENTS.

Anyway, the cca reponse was a computer (word doc type) of a credit card agreement which they stated was a recon of the original agreement. No dates and wrong address - when I applied for the card I lived at a different address. I don't know if that is relevant?

Also the agreement goes on to say about online banking. When I took out this card, online banking did not exist! On the alleged agreement it also says Lloyds Bank - they were completely separate businesses back then. So, the agreement is not a copy or true reconstruction of the original.

They only sent me the current T&C's as they stated that "they do not have to supply the original T&C's at inception anymore"?
I haven't checked yet but I'm assuming that the charges and interest will not be the ones from the original agreement.

Nothing is signed or dated ( I know for a CCA request a signature is not needed) but I have no idea what date this agreement came from other than the points I have made above.

I want to make an official complaint to them regarding there apparent failure. Has anyone got any suggestions?

Thanks in advance
Sidley

Hello Sidley,

Here's what a recon agreement must have to be compliant with a CCA request.

1. Your name and address as it was when the account was opened.
2 Ditto for the creditor.
3. The terms and conditions relevant when the account was opened.
3. " " " " " " " was closed.
4. Any other documents mentioned in the terms and conditions.

It sound as if they have attempted to fob you off with a " doctored" agreement.

When was the account opened?

nem

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Thank you nemesis for your reply,

the account was taken out between 1988 - 1990.

They have only sent the T&C's at close no originals.

Should I mention this to them when I make an official complaint?

Thanks
Sidley

[nemesis45]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Thank you nemesis for your reply,

the account was taken out between 1988 - 1990.

They have only sent the T&C's at close no originals.

Should I mention this to them when I make an official complaint?

Thanks
Sidley

Yes it should be mentioned in a " Formal Complaint" this allows for the creditor to fully investigate and respond within 56 days.

Try to find out the name of the CEO of the creditor and send the complaint to them by signed for post.

nem

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Thanks again Nem,

I do not know whether this might help others?

I had the same problem earlier this year with R/way re: Barclaycard. I CCA'd RW for the agreement etc, I eventually got back something with an "APPLICATION FORM" on top but so badly copied it looked like is was written in sanskrit and covered with 3 barcode stickers over important parts of the document. Even worse for the alleged T&C's - at least that's what RW were claiming they were!

Got in contact with the FoS, Ombudsman said they couldn't intervene until I had made a 'Formal Complaint' and received a 'Final Decision' which I duly got from RW - saying this made the account enforceable.

Raised a complaint (online) with the FoS. Few days later, phone cal,l saying they couldn't rule on enforceability, I told them I hadn't requested that, I wanted them to mediate on my behalf to get the documentation requested. They agreed.

RW sent the ombudsman the same quality, when he said he couldn't read it and asked for better, legible copies they stopped responding. His words "they were less than helpful". His idea was to go to Barclaycard(BC) directly, with my permission, and request said contract.
They sent him exactly what Halifax have sent me now. He emailed me to say he'd been successful and wanted to close the case, until I pointed out this was a recent CCA and not one from 1993. He then contacted BC to ask for the original or a recon. one.
BC responded that they didn't have one and are unable to produce one.

He said that BC were very helpful and friendly. But I suppose they would have to keep on the sweet side of the ombudsman.

He emailed a copy of their response and since then RW sends out a computer generated letter stating they are still trying to get the requested documentation form the OC, a letter every 2 months or so. The ombudsman, said he could not force a company to produce documentation that they didn't have and closed the case.

He later said, in our last phone call, that he had worked in a bank in London for 15 years and was surprised they could even produce the badly copied application form. He told me that when their filing cabinets were bursting they contacted a company to pick them up and take them away. The bank had not archived them, just thrown them into boxes and he nor the bank had any idea where they went. He said it would be almost impossible for a bank to search through thousands of boxes at various locations that were not archived properly in the first place. Some of the old boxes in warehouses get disposed of to make more room for the newer boxes, an agreement this old probably doesn't exist any longer.

So, in my experience do not go to the FoS about enforceability, but ask them to mediate on your behalf to get the documentation you require, that you are legally entitled to. Explain to them that why you are not happy with the 'Final Decision' and re-assure them you are not asking about enforceability.

Keep everything you have sent and received from the FoS, because in future you can always produce this to show, whoever, that you have tried your hardest to get to the bottom of this and even the ombudsman have failed. If they or another DCA threatens to take you to court, you can produce this documentation.

Hope that helps.

I off to send my Formal Complaint in now.

Thanks nem.

[nemesis45]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Thanks again Nem,

I do not know whether this might help others?

I had the same problem earlier this year with R/way re: Barclaycard. I CCA'd RW for the agreement etc, I eventually got back something with an "APPLICATION FORM" on top but so badly copied it looked like is was written in sanskrit and covered with 3 barcode stickers over important parts of the document. Even worse for the alleged T&C's - at least that's what RW were claiming they were!

Got in contact with the FoS, Ombudsman said they couldn't intervene until I had made a 'Formal Complaint' and received a 'Final Decision' which I duly got from RW - saying this made the account enforceable.

Raised a complaint (online) with the FoS. Few days later, phone cal,l saying they couldn't rule on enforceability, I told them I hadn't requested that, I wanted them to mediate on my behalf to get the documentation requested. They agreed.

RW sent the ombudsman the same quality, when he said he couldn't read it and asked for better, legible copies they stopped responding. His words "they were less than helpful". His idea was to go to Barclaycard(BC) directly, with my permission, and request said contract.
They sent him exactly what Halifax have sent me now. He emailed me to say he'd been successful and wanted to close the case, until I pointed out this was a recent CCA and not one from 1993. He then contacted BC to ask for the original or a recon. one.
BC responded that they didn't have one and are unable to produce one.

He said that BC were very helpful and friendly. But I suppose they would have to keep on the sweet side of the ombudsman.

He emailed a copy of their response and since then RW sends out a computer generated letter stating they are still trying to get the requested documentation form the OC, a letter every 2 months or so. The ombudsman, said he could not force a company to produce documentation that they didn't have and closed the case.

He later said, in our last phone call, that he had worked in a bank in London for 15 years and was surprised they could even produce the badly copied application form. He told me that when their filing cabinets were bursting they contacted a company to pick them up and take them away. The bank had not archived them, just thrown them into boxes and he nor the bank had any idea where they went. He said it would be almost impossible for a bank to search through thousands of boxes at various locations that were not archived properly in the first place. Some of the old boxes in warehouses get disposed of to make more room for the newer boxes, an agreement this old probably doesn't exist any longer.

So, in my experience do not go to the FoS about enforceability, but ask them to mediate on your behalf to get the documentation you require, that you are legally entitled to. Explain to them that why you are not happy with the 'Final Decision' and re-assure them you are not asking about enforceability.

Keep everything you have sent and received from the FoS, because in future you can always produce this to show, whoever, that you have tried your hardest to get to the bottom of this and even the ombudsman have failed. If they or another DCA threatens to take you to court, you can produce this documentation.

Hope that helps.

I off to send my Formal Complaint in now.

Thanks nem.

Hello Sidley,

Just for clarity:

The Information Commissioners Office is the regulator to complain to about non production of requested data and the non compliance with a CCA request and all the daft tricks debt purchasers try should be reported to the Financial Conduct Authority as Information on the conduct of a regulated company".

Which will be logged and reviewed when licensing is reviewed.


nem

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Hi nem,

When I asked the ombudsman at the FoS about who to go to about non compliance with a CCA request, he told me that no-one (ie FoS; FCA or ICO) has any real power. The only way to go would be to take them to court yourself for non compliance, either forcing them to produce what they have or admit they don't have it. Obviously, with the cost and paperwork it really wouldn't be worth it.

So you can go to the ICO for non compliance of a CCA request?

Cheers

sidley

[nemesis45]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Hi nem,

When I asked the ombudsman at the FoS about who to go to about non compliance with a CCA request, he told me that no-one (ie FoS; FCA or ICO) has any real power. The only way to go would be to take them to court yourself for non compliance, either forcing them to produce what they have or admit they don't have it. Obviously, with the cost and paperwork it really wouldn't be worth it.

So you can go to the ICO for non compliance of a CCA request?

Cheers

sidley

Yes certainly if you believe that personal data is being unreasonably withheld.

nem

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Hi there,

Just preparing my formal complaint letter. How many errors should I point out to them? All of them or just the salient ones?

For example:

The recon agreement of the "original" starts off with Heading PARTIES "the parties to this agreement are Bank of Scotland plc . The Mound, Edingburgh etc. Then my name and current address? No mention of Halifax, who were a separate company back then and not my old address.

Another example is in GENERAL CREDIT CARD CONDITIONS this mentions the LLoyds Banking Group (this didn't happen until (2009), just checked on Wiki.)

Then it goes on about ONLINE BANKING and what is covered and usage etc. Does anyone know when online banking started?

Also Distance selling regulations (2000) and Distance Marketing regulaitons (2004). Then finally it mentions the CONTRACTS (Right of third Parties) Act 1999.

There are many more of these, any help gratefully appreciated.

Thanks again
sidley

[Diana M]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to achieve with this complaint.

It seems you are seeking a declaration from someone that the account is unenforceable, and only a court can do that.

If you write and tell them all the things they've got wrong then they will simply remedy them in a better updated reconstituted version of your CCA which may pass the test in court if they decided to go down that route. Is that what you want?

It looks like you're paying a DCA so does this mean you simply want to use the 'enforceability' argument to reduce the payments they are seeking to increase?

Di

[sidley]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

HI Diana,

I was paying Halifax a token amount from Nov 2011, when out of the blue I received a letter from Cabot saying payment should be made to them. I refused until I had notification from Halifax (RBOS). Never received any response from them. I carried on paying Halifax and it was then allegedly, sold to Cabot (Marlin V). Letters from Cabot urging me to set up a direct debit with them, I said that unless I received formal notification from Halifax I would carry on as normal. Then payments were stopped to Halifax ( not by me) I assume by Halifax?

Cabot started upping the threat-o-grams hinting at taking this further. In some of the older agreements (Halifax Building Society) a mutual back then, there was a clause that both parties had to be in agreement for an account to be transfered.

Hence I want out find out if this was the case.

cheers

sidley

[Diana M]

Re: CCA request for card taken out in late 1980's

Cabot started upping the threat-o-grams hinting at taking this further

Have you told Cabot that your s.77-79 CCA Request has not been complied with?

Di