Council Tax Summons dispute

[Carlosdecorator]

Hello

Last year I put a claim in for benefits with figures my accountant did for me via self assessment. They said I was entitled and also back dated it for me. They paid me a lump sump. A week later they wrote to me saying they'd like invoices from me showing a breakdown of my labour and materials cost so they can carry on paying me benefits. I told them I couldn't do this as my invoices are only one figure with no breakdown and its bad practice to re-create an invoice. I said if they've paid me benefits on the figures I've given and they've paid me in error then its their mistake and they should cover the costs. They wrote back saying they'd pass it onto a manager to see if they'd write it off. Nothing heard since.

I received a summons today to appear at court for non payment for the period I was on benefits. This is because they cancelled benefits because I wouldn't give them invoices. They have said that a decision has still not been made about that and because no payment has been made I'm liable for it. They can clearly see on notes that a decision is pending about writing owed money off but they still want me to go court. I've also asked if there is a form to fill in for my expenses with having to take a day off work and they've said there isn't. I'm planning on going to court with this letter saying they'll look at writing it off, but what else can I do or say? How will I claim expenses? Do I ask for it to be done in-front of a magistrate and not a council official?

[Kati]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

[MENTION=15129]Crazy council[/MENTION] or [MENTION=62334]Snoopy1948[/MENTION] might be able to advise xx

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hi Carlosdecorator ...

Can you confirm that you are talking about council tax support ( i.e. help towards council tax ) issues here rather than housing benefit? I wondered as you mention a 'lump sum' that I can only think would arise if a backdate of benefit put your ctax account into credit.

My understanding of self assessment is that HMRC accept your figures for income and expenditure leading to a nett profit figure that would then be assessed for tax. Normally councils accept either a 'self employed form' ( where you declare gross turnover together with all allowable business expenses ) or the latest audited accounts. I am also aware that in more recent years, councils have adopted a policy of not accepting self declarations which lead to low net profits, day £40 a week, and are reassessing such situations where they place all assessable incomes on 'minimum wage' levels. This is making the assumption that no one would become self employed for incomes lower than minimum legal levels.

From what you say, you could never have 'one figure' records as otherwise the taxman would not accept that. If the council have cancelled assessed benefits on the basis of non compliance for new information, I believe they have the right to do that. I suspect that the summons you have received is purely to request issue of a liability order and you are unlikely to see a magistrate but more likely a council officer who will probably not want to be involved with your complex complaint at that time.

Of course if your complaint is upheld, the summons costs can be cancelled but even though you are waiting for a decision, I think you need some help with that appeal and making sure you submit the missing information although they do have time limits on that as well. I will say that council benefit departments are all saturated with work so it's not surprising that the initial paperwork was overturned.

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hello
Thanks for the info.
I had my accounts done by an accountant who gave me a breakdown of drawings, materials, staff costs etc. I gave those exact details to housing and council tax benefits and was awarded full entitlements. They said they'd pay my council tax and housing benefits back dated the claim and gave me a lump sum and then monthly payments.

The benefits (housing and council) questioned my figures that I had given them weeks after they had awarded benefits on those exact figures. They asked for receipts and invoices for the full tax year. I went down to the benefits office with 4000 pieces of paper but they wouldn't scan them on to the system. They asked me for those twice and both times i went with the full info and was refused. Eventually they asked for all my invoices showing a breakdown of labour and materials. I explained I couldn't do that as an invoice that already is in existence and can not be altered legally. I said I only have the figures from the end of the tax year which HMRC have accepted. They then sent letters out saying I wasn't entitled now etc. I wrote back saying if you have awarded me benefits on the figures I've given you and now you've decided I'm not entitled to them then that is an internal error they should cover. They then sent me a letter saying they'll pass it onto their manager to have it looked at being written off.

I have never refused them new information just explained it can not be given as its illegal to re-create an invoice and that if I was to get my accounts re done then I would do it for them but I'd have to pass the cost on to them. There is nothing I can give them that is different.

On the summons it states money unpaid to them is from 01.04.14-31.03.16 and a figure of £869. I have no breakdown of this cost or from what periods in those periods they arise.

So, when I go to court I'm having to take a day off from work. How will I put in an expenses claim? What if I was to use a solicitor? With it being held at a court can I request it be heard infront of a district judge or recorder and not a council official? If not would there be a conflict of interest?

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hi again Carlosdecorator ..

If this is a summons purely to apply for a liability order for the year in question, there is little point in employing legal representation as it's only the first stage of enforcement.

As for the real cause of this, I am afraid that it's a simple battle between yourself and bureaucracy. There is clearly some suspicion on behalf of the council benefit section here as to the validity of your information supplied and I can well understand why they are not prepared to scan 4000 items of paper. It is your job to present them with information that can be validated without excessive work and I would need to know exactly what has happened to give you further opinion. Yes, it is extremely frustrating for you and as I always used to say, just tell them what they want to know. Remember benefits, in any form, are a release of technically 'free money' that belongs to the public purse and as such they have to be entirely satisfied.

Did you also incur an overpayment of housing benefit as a result?

You can of course go to court on the day but you will most likely be seen by a council officer who will not be able to give you a valid answer as to why your information was not processed to your satisfaction. The court will only be in respect of council tax, not housing benefit, if that indeed applies. AT best, the council officer may agree to postpone your particular case on the day but I doubt it somehow.

You will have to submit an appeal about the council's assessment decision providing it is in time. But if you do, the whole argument starts again so you will need to be confident in your argument.

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hello

Yes the housing benefits too. An appeal was put in in May and they're still yet to make a decision. I gave them a full breakdown of my accounts done by a chartered accountant, not just a profit o loss figure but exact amounts I paid for materials, depreciation on tools and vehicles, staff costs, petrol, phone costs. You name it they had it. That wasn't good enough for them so they asked for roof of purchase of materials etc. If they have already had a breakdown then the next step is the receipts. How can I not take all of them? They asked for them in a letter after I explained how many bits of paper there was and they still insisted they wanted them.

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hi again Carlosdecorator ...

When I worked for a local authority, one of my jobs was to recover overpayments of housing benefit and as such I was often in the middle of the assessment argument but I did have an extensive knowledge of benefit assessment and the evidence that it relied on. From what you say, this council benefit department is going to town on you and I simply cannot understand their request. I can only assume that they are not happy with the accuracy of your submissions. Out of interest, was your net profit above or below the minimum wage based on a 40 hour week and has there been any inference of fraud at any time here? You would really best be served by making an appointment to see someone from the benefit section and putting all these points face to face. I am fully aware that councils deter people from doing this very thing nowadays but you have to try.

Frankly, and reading between the lines here, I can only assume that they are not satisfied with your figures and they must suspect that you are not being totally truthful. Of course I am not saying that you are but that's the way I am seeing this. However, I am so aware in the last two years since I retired, local authorities have mandates to limit the benefit bill and perhaps they are making life a lot harder for claimants, but that's only a guess. I appreciate that you feel you are up against it here and it's hard to comment more accurately without seeing the full picture.

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Hello,

Yes you hit the nail on the head there. I claimed ESA first few months of last year and was investigated. I thought I could claim it with being on a low income. I said I was sorry and I'm paying it back monthly. I do have a previous prison record of fraud from 2013. I do believe as well as other people in my family that they seem to be digging too deep to try and catch me out with something and I've since mentioned that to them in my letter before they said they'd consider writing it off. My figures were below minimum wage but that was because it was my first year trading and I had a lot of tools etc to buy. Every letter I've sent has been recorded too.

[seduraed]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

I can see the council's point of view. You have had a fraud conviction and they are suspicious.
First email head of revenues ,your local councillor, your MP and perhaps,the local paper. Go back to the council and ask them to repeat for the record the requirement for an invoice breakdown. Explain that this is,fraud and that it is a crime for a public official to be party to wrongdoing malfeasance, is I believe the correct term. Make a formal complaint, also let you local councillor hear the conversation. There is no need to tell them you are recording as the telecoms act permits,r recording to prevent crime.. Ask them directly if they think your chartered accountant is lying.
The council want to see the invoices in a particular way. So I would start producing them that,way. Make a summary of income and expenditure,and explain on it why you are earning less than minimum wage. Do you have a scanner? If so scan the documents yourself and send them to each of the officers involved. Just start paying something and with each payment ask for a receipt and to see a revenue officer.

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Since March this year I have been paying normal council tax because they said I wasn't entitle. I have a DD set up and pay about £120 a month and never miss a payment. What is fraud? The re-creating an invoice part? I filled out their income and expenditure form with a full breakdown. My materials that year came to 18k ad drawings were 5k. Can see how it does look. Tomorrow I'll upload some letters that I've sent them

[wales01man]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

How many weeks did you work in the last year a decorator spending 18k on materials etc and only earning 6k would not seem right to most people

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

it was a full year. Materials included scaffold hire, new tools (paste table £208) sander (£250) dust extractor (£250) etc. Wallpaper at £900 a roll, Farrow and ball paint. I messed up with pricing on my first year and only guessed hat materials cost before I started to learn and make contacts. I still have all my receipts too as I've to keep them for 6 years

[Diana M]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

I do have a previous prison record of fraud from 2013.

That was then. This is now.

Having a previous conviction for fraud doesn't make you a serial fraudster.

Does the council know about your previous conviction and if so how?

Di

[Carlosdecorator]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

Not that I am aware of no. They'd only know if they someone who was dealing with it had remembered seeing it in the papers. I was ill at the time and its not something I'd like to be doing again. I've tried to be as open as possible with them. The last letter I sent was saying how all this is making me feel down again and that I get the impression someone in the council has a personal vendetta against me. Thats when they just sent a two line letter saying they'll ask their manager to writ it off. Something just doesn't sit right about it all

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council Tax Summons dispute

In my 23 years working in local authority enforcement, I have seen many people commit benefit fraud and receive custodial sentences, probation or community service. I was also of the strong conviction that such people were not automatically 'serial offenders', but alas many were and I reported them time and time again. Councils will obviously have a 'flag' against any benefit claimant ( they are there to protect the public purse after all ) but I always told such people that regardless of your fraud history, you were entitled to claim benefits just like anyone else if your circumstances dictated so and of course that you were 100% honest in your claim.

Councils will only write off unpaid council tax if it is entirely uneconomic to do so but as council purses tighten, I can only see that happening if you disappear without trace. It's not good policy to write off debts when others have struggled to pay theirs.

Yes going to court does mean that you cannot work on the day and you won't be able to claim expenses. You will be seen by magistrates or a council official depending on the type of hearing. It sounds to me that you really need some advice on exactly what has happened here and where your responsibilities have failed and if all else fails. where you need to admit any failings on your part. Without paying for legal representation, do you know anyone capable of being an advocate for you who could collate the whole issue and mediate for you? I would love to say that council's do not have 'personal vendettas' against individuals but I have seen it happen, sad to say.