Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

[CharlieM]

Hello there

I am hoping you might be able to advise me on what legal/ other redress I may have following the discovery of fire damage on a boat my partner purchased recently

The boat description on Ebay stated that the boat "was lifted 2015 for hull inspection and insurance purposes, that it was repainted and antifoul applied - and that she was sound apart from a few minor DIY tasks, such as varnishing and tidying of the galley.'

The owners confirmed her good condition verbally when we visited . They showed us various parts of the hull interior - the newly decorated forepeak area- and she seemed in very good order - so we went ahead with purchase.

The boat arrived with an accompanying note mentioning a new oil leak from the engines, and an overwhelming smell of air freshener.

We set about cleaning the whole interior- and to our alarm, have discovered evidence of considerable fire damage-including 2 charred structural beams which had been hidden under pipe lagging- and that some areas of the bow had been covered with fresh fibre glass matting and paint- some of which is still tacky

We contacted the previous owners to ask about the fire damage and they deny any knowledge of the fire - so we have sent pictures and a surveyors inspection report outlining the implications of the structural damage - with the aim of getting all our money back plus the costs of returning the boat to them

We would very much appreciate any advice you might be able to offer with regards to the most effective legal courses of action we could pursue;

1. Whether their non disclosure of this damage can be proven as fraud?

2. this fire damage significantly compromises the boat's structural integrity - rendering it unseaworthy, uninsurable, a considerable danger and therefore not fit for purpose

Please advise us what your favoured approach might be - or if anyone can recommend experienced legal advisors for these circumstances?

Many thanks in advance for your kind consideration and assistance

Charlotte

[des8]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Hi and welcome.

As you purchased this vessel via eBay, can we assume it was a private sale?
Have you checked to see if it was a trader masqueradig as private seller?

Generally with private sales the purchaser has no legal protection, it is a case of buyer beware.
If you buy solely by description (ie you bought from the advert without viewing the craft first) the craft would have to match with the description.
However having inspected the craft the onus is on you to ensure it is sound. (next time use a qualified marine surveyor?)

"The owners confirmed her good condition verbally when we visited"
If this confirmation can be proven, you may have grounds for a successful court claim, as buyer's direct questions (if answered) must be answered truthfully

Have you tried opening a dispute with eBay? http://pages.ebay.co.uk/ebay-money-b...w-to-help.html

[ostell]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Could the damage have been between inspecting and taking delivery? Just thinking about that still tacky glass work.

[CharlieM]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Hi and welcome.

As you purchased this vessel via eBay, can we assume it was a private sale?
Have you checked to see if it was a trader masqueradig as private seller?

Generally with private sales the purchaser has no legal protection, it is a case of buyer beware.
If you buy solely by description (ie you bought from the advert without viewing the craft first) the craft would have to match with the description.
However having inspected the craft the onus is on you to ensure it is sound. (next time use a qualified marine surveyor?)

"The owners confirmed her good condition verbally when we visited"
If this confirmation can be proven, you may have grounds for a successful court claim, as buyer's direct questions (if answered) must be answered truthfully

Have you tried opening a dispute with eBay? http://pages.ebay.co.uk/ebay-money-b...w-to-help.html

Hello there thank you for your response- yes it was indeed a private sale but the money was paid direct to their account- not through paypal/ebay- so this may perhaps be a scam.

We went through each of the key features they had advertised when we went to see the boat and they verbally confirmed that all of these were in good working order- however the area where we have found fire damage was tucked down inside the newly redecorated forepeak/bow and the structural timbers were covered by foam lagging so had been concealed, so it wasn't until we were cleaning and finding lots of evidence of soot/smoke.that we discovered the charred timbers and realised that it was fire damage rather than dirt

I've read a thread on this site http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...hase-of-a-boat which describes a scenario- whereby the boat buyer could only have discovered the fault when he put the engine in the water-

From what i've gather from the feedback on this thread- the fact that the seller in that instance had not disclosed this major fault was apparently grounds for fraud?

Yes its very clear that we should have got a marine survey but I thought / hoped that there were some protection laws against selling faulty goods/ items not fit for purpose/ dishonestly make a false representation "
(b)intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss

?

Any helpful tips would be very much appreciated
Thank you again for your considerations! best C

[CharlieM]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Could the damage have been between inspecting and taking delivery? Just thinking about that still tacky glass work.

Hello there and thank you for looking at this for us

The forepeak/bow area /front cabin was advertised having been "refitted- along with new curtains and upholstery " and all looked smart / well presented so we didn't have cause to suspect anything of this kind when we first viewed the boat

On first inspection the interior of the hull just looked like it had been freshly cleaned and painted - however it was only when we began to realise that what we thought was dirt in other area of the boat was actually smoke damage/soot

- however we also later realised that locker lid over the main area of fire damage had specifically been made without a handle -unlike the other adjacent lockers- so this seems like another layer of concealment

the boat also arrived with a new oil leak with no explanation or recompense- and we dont as yet know what this will cost to repair

So we are very keen to find ways to redress this awful situation

I hope you have some ideas!

Many thanks

Charlie

[CharlieM]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Hello sorry I forgot to say that the boat was taken round from its original mooring and loaded onto a truck so its doubtfull it happened then- especially as the fresh redecoration we'd already seen was probably done to cover up more visible external signs of fire damage thanks C

[des8]

Re: Legal redress for undisclosed fire damage to second hand boat

Whilst, from your description, there was an obvious attempt to disguise the damage, I think you will have trouble obtaining redress through the courts.

The post you linked to was a case where the contract to purchase was agreed on the basis of description only.
A deposit was paid.
The item was viewed and inspected and deal completed
Item then found to be faulty
Court case initiated on grounds that the description was false.
Defence was that item was inspected prior to purchase.
Infuriatingly we do not know the result, but imo it would have revolved round the point at which the contract was struck.

You contracted to purchase the boat after examining it. In that scenario it is a case of caveat emptor.
You are buying the boat,in common parlance "as seen".
You would need to show that you had asked specific questions which were then answered untruthfully.
The seller is saying that he was unaware of the problems.... can you show otherwise?
If you think the fire was recent, have you searched the local papers to see if a fire in the boat was reported?
A word with local fire brigade (or coast guard/RNLI if a seagoing craft)?

Have you had a response to the sending of your pictures and surveyors report?
If none, or a negative response I suppose you could initially send a letter before action, to see if that changes anything.
Following that you could initiate a court case and hope for a settlement at mediation stage, 'cos I don't think a court would find in your favour.
However if you are looking for under £10,000 you never know how a judge will find.
I