DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

[Bv123]

Hi All,

Firstly, I really need to say what a wonderful, helpful and "community" site LegalBeagles is.

Something the government should have created if David Cameron's "We're all in it together" had any real meaning.

So a big thank you to the Admins, Owners and Mods.

Also, humbling to see so many real problems and even better, to see real solutions.

What led me to this site? From living a straightforward life (working 9-5, actually 7-7!, trying to pay off the mortgage, keep wife and children happy etc etc) to facing the emotional drain of my Father passing away and hence now looking after my mother, but then also being thrown in at the deep end of the

Probate (through which I managed to keep a clear head), but then when I thought I'm back in the rat race, MONTHS later a letter from DWP Debt Management Recovery from Estate asking for....everything!

Having read many posts/threads of other people experiencing the same issue, it looks to be a living nightmare.

So, my request is - can anyone recommend a Solicitor in the Greater North West London/Middlesex area that knows the ins-and-outs of DWP Recovery from Estate process?

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Hi All,

Firstly, I really need to say what a wonderful, helpful and "community" site LegalBeagles is.

Something the government should have created if David Cameron's "We're all in it together" had any real meaning.

So a big thank you to the Admins, Owners and Mods.

Also, humbling to see so many real problems and even better, to see real solutions.

What led me to this site? From living a straightforward life (working 9-5, actually 7-7!, trying to pay off the mortgage, keep wife and children happy etc etc) to facing the emotional drain of my Father passing away and hence now looking after my mother, but then also being thrown in at the deep end of the

Probate (through which I managed to keep a clear head), but then when I thought I'm back in the rat race, MONTHS later a letter from DWP Debt Management Recovery from Estate asking for....everything!

Having read many posts/threads of other people experiencing the same issue, it looks to be a living nightmare.

So, my request is - can anyone recommend a Solicitor in the Greater North West London/Middlesex area that knows the ins-and-outs of DWP Recovery from Estate process?

Recovery from Estate is civil process , ie DWP have to prove their claim in court. What are DWP trying to claim and do you have any reasons why it is unfair or wrong do to do so? You could pay a lawyer for this and you still may not save the estate from DWP's claims. Have you considered defending this your self, if you feel able to? The law permits DWP to claim for over-payments, but not if it was DWP's fault and the now deceased person informs DWP at the relevant time. For instance, did the deceased person at any point during their benefits, or overpayment period, lose capacity (ie not of the legal mind required) or did they have a power of attorney (appointed to mange their affairs when the other loses capacity)? Are you the executor, if so have you posted for any debtors to come forward in the London Gazette before dealing with the estate under the law? What in particular of the estate are DWP trying to claim?

[enaid]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Hi and welcome,
Do you feel you can not deal with this yourself? time scales for DWP for this sort of thing can be so long and tbh solicitors don't seem to push the matter while lining their pockets.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Recovery from Estate is civil process , ie DWP have to prove their claim in court. What are DWP trying to claim and do you have any reasons why it is unfair or wrong do to do so? You could pay a lawyer for this and you still may not save the estate from DWP's claims. Have you considered defending this your self, if you feel able to? The law permits DWP to claim for over-payments, but not if it was DWP's fault and the now deceased person informs DWP at the relevant time. For instance, did the deceased person at any point during their benefits, or overpayment period, lose capacity (ie not of the legal mind required) or did they have a power of attorney (appointed to mange their affairs when the other loses capacity)? Are you the executor, if so have you posted for any debtors to come forward in the London Gazette before dealing with the estate under the law? What in particular of the estate are DWP trying to claim?

OpenLaw15 - Thanks for the quick reply.
I’ll try and answer your questions, some of which made me stop and think further (and made this post longer than I anticipated).

What are DWP trying to claim? -
At the moment, they are not claiming (so why send me this letter?). They are simply asking for details of my father’s assets. But obviously as the letter is from DWP's "Debt Management" department, they will want to claim something. They have no doubt been given figures I entered into the Probate/IHT application form and feel that my father’s savings were higher than the threshold required to claim Pension Credit (£10,000? £16,000? and also did the thresholds change over the years so that at one point the saving were below but next year they were above? one reason why I need a solicitor).

and do you have any reasons why it is unfair or wrong do to do so? -
I would use the words confusing and beauracratic. If the Probate office thought the figures pointed to an overpayment, then along with giving me the Grant of Representation, they should have stated (in DWP’s favorite saying) "...this enquiry could lead to a claim....no wait, there IS a claim against the estate by the DWP. Therefore we strongly advice you not to distribute the estate" and not wait a few months by which time most people will have distributed the estate.

Have you considered defending this yourself, if you feel able to?
Not so much “defend” as find the quickest path through this process. I am willing to pay back any incorrect overpayment and just want them to give me a figure.

As an aside - During the Probate application, I felt morally obliged as my fathers (only) son to be the Executor and get Grant of Representation. This was a very daunting task for me but as I say, “morally obliged” (what would my own sons think of me!).

A kick on the backside does wonders and I went through the Bereavement/Probate learning curve. (they don’t teach this in school you know, along with “what is a mortgage”, “what are taxes” and “how to say ‘I don’t know’ ”, although its obvious that millions of people WILL one day have to face it, they don’t teach this in school).

Now finding there is yet another daunting learning curve is something I don’t have time, patience nor the sanity for (another reason why I need a solicitor). For I might as well become a solicitor myself in this matter…..or at least an expert……ok, at least a common man who thinks he knows it all.
A joke! Means my sanity is still there (just!).

Are you the executor, if so have you posted for any debtors to come forward in the London Gazette before dealing with the estate under the law?
I am the Executor. Not posted anything in the London Gazette. My father was not that sort of man (borrowing from loan sharks, gambling debts etc) and had a very good reputation in our community. So I knew there will be no one he owes money to.

After reading some more posts, I am led to believe that the DWP are to be considered as "Creditors" (or should that be “Debtors”? Another reason why I need a solicitor).

Beggars belief that the DWP would wait for an “ad in the paper” before they think, “I think he owes me money.”

What in particular of the estate are DWP trying to claim?
(Money…….I guess. What else has value in this world?)

As mentioned earlier, at the moment its only an “enquiry”. There is no “claim”.

I feel they should just claim as they have the overall figures.

Actually, should I just call them now and state this?

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Hi and welcome,
Do you feel you can not deal with this yourself? time scales for DWP for this sort of thing can be so long and tbh solicitors don't seem to push the matter while lining their pockets.

Hi Enaid,

Thanks for replying.

To answer your question, please see my response in the previous post to the question, "Have you considered defending this yourself, if you feel able to? "

Yes, I've heard that of some solicitors, so was hoping someone on here could recommend one, instead of me just hiring my local solicitor.

[enaid]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Well I would hang fire until you at least find out exactly what the DWP are after, this is the norm after probate and pension credit has been claimed.
Was pension credit being claimed as a couple? If so is your mum still claiming it?
Also please have a read about Assessed Income Periods and have a look through paper work to see if you can find anything on this .

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

OpenLaw15 - Thanks for the quick reply.
I’ll try and answer your questions, some of which made me stop and think further (and made this post longer than I anticipated).

What are DWP trying to claim? -
At the moment, they are not claiming (so why send me this letter?). They are simply asking for details of my father’s assets. But obviously as the letter is from DWP's "Debt Management" department, they will want to claim something. They have no doubt been given figures I entered into the Probate/IHT application form and feel that my father’s savings were higher than the threshold required to claim Pension Credit (£10,000? £16,000? and also did the thresholds change over the years so that at one point the saving were below but next year they were above? one reason why I need a solicitor).

and do you have any reasons why it is unfair or wrong do to do so? -
I would use the words confusing and beauracratic. If the Probate office thought the figures pointed to an overpayment, then along with giving me the Grant of Representation, they should have stated (in DWP’s favorite saying) "...this enquiry could lead to a claim....no wait, there IS a claim against the estate by the DWP. Therefore we strongly advice you not to distribute the estate" and not wait a few months by which time most people will have distributed the estate.

Have you considered defending this yourself, if you feel able to?
Not so much “defend” as find the quickest path through this process. I am willing to pay back any incorrect overpayment and just want them to give me a figure.

As an aside - During the Probate application, I felt morally obliged as my fathers (only) son to be the Executor and get Grant of Representation. This was a very daunting task for me but as I say, “morally obliged” (what would my own sons think of me!).

A kick on the backside does wonders and I went through the Bereavement/Probate learning curve. (they don’t teach this in school you know, along with “what is a mortgage”, “what are taxes” and “how to say ‘I don’t know’ ”, although its obvious that millions of people WILL one day have to face it, they don’t teach this in school).

Now finding there is yet another daunting learning curve is something I don’t have time, patience nor the sanity for (another reason why I need a solicitor). For I might as well become a solicitor myself in this matter…..or at least an expert……ok, at least a common man who thinks he knows it all.
A joke! Means my sanity is still there (just!).

Are you the executor, if so have you posted for any debtors to come forward in the London Gazette before dealing with the estate under the law?
I am the Executor. Not posted anything in the London Gazette. My father was not that sort of man (borrowing from loan sharks, gambling debts etc) and had a very good reputation in our community. So I knew there will be no one he owes money to.

After reading some more posts, I am led to believe that the DWP are to be considered as "Creditors" (or should that be “Debtors”? Another reason why I need a solicitor).

Beggars belief that the DWP would wait for an “ad in the paper” before they think, “I think he owes me money.”

What in particular of the estate are DWP trying to claim?
(Money…….I guess. What else has value in this world?)

As mentioned earlier, at the moment its only an “enquiry”. There is no “claim”.

I feel they should just claim as they have the overall figures.

Actually, should I just call them now and state this?

if there is a survivor who has a joint bank account with the deceased, you're not obliged to send them the bank statements. They can however ask you, ie send proof of all assets including shared bank accounts, under DWP law. You could call up law society and ask them to refer you to a solicitor who deals with overpayment claims against estate. However, I would ask DWP to prove there has been an overpayment first and that it is not their fault.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Well I would hang fire until you at least find out exactly what the DWP are after, this is the norm after probate and pension credit has been claimed.
Was pension credit being claimed as a couple? If so is your mum still claiming it?
Also please have a read about Assessed Income Periods and have a look through paper work to see if you can find anything on this .

I'm not sure if pension credit was being claimed as a couple.
I'll have to ask mum If she's still claiming it.

Thanks for the link. I'll have a brief glance at it but this is the main reason why I want a solicitor to do this for me -

- more info, more new terminology for me to try and decipher, more procedural "nooks and crannies" to get caught in.

I know "that which does not kill you makes you stronger" and I have experienced that but there is a limit.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

if there is a survivor who has a joint bank account with the deceased, you're not obliged to send them the bank statements. They can however ask you, ie send proof of all assets including shared bank accounts, under DWP law. You could call up law society and ask them to refer you to a solicitor who deals with overpayment claims against estate. However, I would ask DWP to prove there has been an overpayment first and that it is not their fault.

Thanks for the info OpenLaw15.

Yes, I will I'll try the Law society.

My thinking is that If a solicitor sends a letter asking DWP to prove there has been an overpayment first and that it is not their fault, it would have more of a legal standing than if me, the common man, sent the letter.

[wales01man]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

If sending a letter was the way to stop them? They have a duty to check this for a possible overpayment I t seems to be routine problem is they take so long to sort it been through it with MILs estate

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Thanks for the info OpenLaw15.

Yes, I will I'll try the Law society.

My thinking is that If a solicitor sends a letter asking DWP to prove there has been an overpayment first and that it is not their fault, it would have more of a legal standing than if me, the common man, sent the letter.

DWP pay their solicitors/ others to make claims for overpayments of benefits including Pension Credit, against the estate. DWP, looking at it another way, is the government and has all the resources in the world pretty much to attempt to get what they want. Blame the Tories for this as they changed the law in 1992 to permit estate claims against state benefit beneficiaries. A DWP solicitor likes to please their DWP other who pays towards their wages, obviously. So they DWP - using their solicitors - will threaten vulnerable people such as the elderly into submission, if it means they can claim the deceased's assets. Once they get their hands on the asserts there isn't a snow ball in hell's chance of getting it back if it even if it was legally wrong to make the claim. In my view it is immoral but it's not a question of immorality it's a question of the law and the law is, at best is they can only make a claim through the County Courts. They're not automatic creditors therefore. The County Court judge must be persuaded however that the DWP have a valid claim for any overpayment. You're very fortunate that you came here before giving into their (DWP's) 'solicitor's letters' with apparent authorities to do it, which start off nice n friendly then turn into threats; they may even allude it's illegal not to pay them without actually using the word 'illegal.'

Nevertheless, the onus is on DWP to prove the overpayment, and not on you to disprove it. Putting another way unless they see evidence of the assets, they do not know what assets to take an interest in. So, before you give them anything, ask them to prove their claim. If the bank account which was paid the Pension Credit into is a joint one, ie sharing with your mother, you do not have to send this to them by law. They may however ask for it to prove there was an over payment. DWP cannot demand the information form the bank either as the bank owes the bank account holders a duty of care and the bank would not dare provide the details and DWP are well acquainted with this, too. Now if you pay a so-called independent solicitor to do this for you they will prolong the situation whilst they're being paid, as Enaid said above.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

If sending a letter was the way to stop them? They have a duty to check this for a possible overpayment I t seems to be routine problem is they take so long to sort it been through it with MILs estate

Yes, its the "takes so long" part that I don't want to face. Heard other peoples stories that it takes so long that it takes them past the death anniversary.

"....check this for a possible overpayments...." - should'nt they do this every year? Why wait for after the event.

Hopefully yours wasn't such a headache.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

.....ask them to prove their claim.

Thats it. That is what I had in mind. How do I ask them nicely/professionaly/legally that if they have a claim then to go ahead and claim?

Enaid - thanks for the link.
OpenLaw15 - thanks for the info.
That and the benefits calculator on the governments own website have been enlightening. I'm now feeling more confident in tackling this myself.

Also, I contacted two solicitors. Receptionist answered and said someone will call me back. Two days later still no call. I think I'm getting "a kick on the backside" again and will have to do this myself.

Just hoping someone can help me in drafting a letter that asks them "to prove their claim", as they already have the overall figures that prompted them to send me a letter in the first place?

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Thats it. That is what I had in mind. How do I ask them nicely/professionaly/legally that if they have a claim then to go ahead and claim?

Enaid - thanks for the link.
OpenLaw15 - thanks for the info.
That and the benefits calculator on the governments own website have been enlightening. I'm now feeling more confident in tackling this myself.

Also, I contacted two solicitors. Receptionist answered and said someone will call me back. Two days later still no call. I think I'm getting "a kick on the backside" again and will have to do this myself.

Just hoping someone can help me in drafting a letter that asks them "to prove their claim", as they already have the overall figures that prompted them to send me a letter in the first place?

Do you have a copy of the letter from DWP?

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Do you have a copy of the letter from DWP?

Hi OpenLaw15,

I have a copy. Whats the best way to share it? PM, photo upload or just type it in here?