DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

[enaid]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Hi and welcome, firstly well done for keeping all the info, so many of us don't. Not much wonder they have now changed the AIP rules from April 2016.
Can't say how long the investigation will take it's a bit like how long is a piece of string. Hopefully not too long and a happy ending please keep us updated if only to help others .

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

The thing that strikes me about the form is that it asks for no details of the original claim. Thereby the information they receive on it is never ever going to be right or enough to make a decision on. they claim to be the DWP but later on it says the DWP tells us if someone has been receiving benefits. Why are they based in an entirely different part of the country to the usual DWP who I have always found to be extremely efficient and understanding. I spoke to the actual DWP on the date I registered my mother's death and they were very helpful and certainly didn't think she had been overpaid in fact they believed the opposite. My suspicion is this is a speculative punt sent to anyone. The proper DWP would have more or less immediate access to the original claim, would be aware of any assessed income periods from their own documentation etc. Their letter says I should expect a reply in 10 days and I am going to hold them to that after that I start spending and I start a twitter and facebook etc to make sure everyone knows that this might happen to them and everyone knows how to deal with them. In my opinion it is no different to the scam mail/phone calls aimed at the predominantly elderly to swindle them.

[enaid]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

The DWP use different addresses for different benefits and usually you would contact them on the address on any benefits letter you get.
Then there is the Debt Management Centre also the Debt Management Recovery From Estates dept, I think that is what is meant by 'the DWP tell us if someone is receiving benefits' they also do get info from Probate.

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

yes apparently the probate office informs them automatically of any estate over and above benefit levels. But the form as shown in this thread clearly is not fit for purpose. It gives them the information on the person at the time of death not the time of claim and during subsequent assessed income periods and the information at this point is always going to be in their favour as that is why it has been flagged. It's not beyond the realm of possibility for them to check the original claim and circumstances following from it before they jump in feet first and accuse your departed loved one of defrauding the system. There will be a considerable number of people who simply pay up and inappropriately blame their elderly relative for either not being honest or intelligent enough when the truth is they probably were but the DWP has used a situation to it's advantage. One picture (their form now) does not make a gallery (the full story of the claim).

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

OP here again. Apologies for not commenting on others posts, but I've been under depression again as things have escalated as I feared and need some advice again.

The deceased claim for Pension Credit in 2003 was a joint claim. I am told this is standard as couples cannot make individual claims. Is this correct?

As the deceased claim for Pension Credit was a joint claim, DWP RFET now want to see the "joint claimee's" (living spouse's) account.

Are they "fishing" or do they have a legitimate right to ask for this?
Do i have a legitimate right to tell them that this whole issue is about the deceased estate, not the spouses?

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

in my opinion they are fishing pure and simple. They should have all the details including financial amounts at the date of the original claim. Do you know the date of the original claim? Can you work out all savings and income at that point. Do you have any letter from the DWP from any point since then? eg the annual increase in amounts letters? Do they refer to an assessed income period? This may have a date of between five and seven years eg 2003 to 2008 or 2010. If either turns 80 years of age during an assessed income period they move onto an indefinite assessed income period. If the claim is legitimate at the start - which it must be because otherwise why would they pay it - any increase in savings or income does not have to be notified to the DWP if it takes place during an assessed income period they could win the euro millions and still have a valid legitimate claim to pension credit

I will tell you my mum's situation in detail in the hope that you can draw parallels with your own and how i dealt with it.

My mum originally claimed income support in 1994 after her divorce aged 65. This subsequently changed to pension credit in 2003 when everyone's did. at both points she had less than £1000 in savings and only a small state pension. I am one of those people who never throws anything away and i would urge anyone dealing with the dwp to adopt the same policy immediately. My mum's first pension credit letter gives her an assessed income period of 2003 to 2010 during which time she sold a small house so her savings increased dramatically. despite legally not having to i wrote and told the dwp (when i confronted them recently with this fact they admitted they still had that letter). They wrote back to say her increase in savings did not affect her pension credit claim (i stil have this letter). Since my mum turned 80 during the assessed income period she went to an indefinite assessed income period covering her up to her death earlier this year. After probate, after payment through the solicitor, i got the same demanding letter. I rang them and they said they would send me a form. Meanwhile I drafted all the above information with evidence. After four days I rang them again, i asked them how long this was going to take and was told they were ten weeks behind and it could take ten weeks on top of that to check the information. I pointed out that as i had been a full time carer for my mother for ten years and was now unable to claim any benefits because of this amount now sitting in my account so could not manage for 20 weeks without any money coming in and since i had rent to pay i could be potentially made homeless by their completely unfounded accusations and if I was I would not hesitate to sue them. i had a phone call from them within one hour to say that based on what i had told them and their records my mother's claim was legitimate and no further action would be taken.

I would urge anyone to confront them in this manner they are no better than those who have invented the browser hijack malware demanding payments. Their form is not fit for purpose, sorry to keep saying this, it tells them what they know and will always be in their favour that is why it has been flagged - over the course of 23 years a persons situation can change dramatically but because of the rules around this benefit up to 2016 then the claim can still be legitimate. I do not believe it is the probate offices job to pass this on since they are completely unaware of any facts around the claim. The DWP should check before they start demanding money with menaces - they must have records of the original claim, they must be aware of granted assessed income periods.

The solicitor who handled my mother's estate was little help. The citizens advice bureau as good as told me to pay up. Age (concern)Uk who didn't ring me back until i had sorted it all out were though as fantastic as they always seem to be. They came back to me with the full explanation of why the DWP were unfounded in this case but told me that this happens to a lot of people and a lot of people do just pay up - you have to wonder how many have paid when they shouldn't have.

I hope this is of some use to you I absolutely understand what you are going through I have lived my entire adult life not owing anyone any money and this put me through hell. I know where i would have been if this hadn't been sorted out.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Marcus18,

Condolences on your loss. Very sorry to hear you are in the same posiiton.

As you have much of the historic paperwork should give you some confidence that DWP have sent you a "standard" letter and will in time (really can't tell when, sorry) send you a standard "...there will be no claim against the estate..." letter. In my case, I only had the previous years letters which in DWP RFET's opinion "did not answer many questions".

I agree with you, and many others, that as soon as the DWP RFET realsie (from the Probatre offices figures) that there is an overpayment, they should make a claim against the estate. What they do instead is try and figure out where and when that overpayument was made which can be anytime between 2003 and the date of death. So you can imagine how stressfull/pointless/solicitors-bread-and-butter this game can be.

This to my mind makes a mokery of the Assesed Income Period (AIP) where the DWP say they don't need to be informed of any changes. Does posthumously looking for any changes make any sense?

Hope yours is a short 3 months with only two corresponences with teh RFET.

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

i had the final decision letter within the week. The assessed income period is set in stone they cannot argue with it. They cannot look for changes posthumously that they said they didn't need to be informed of. They had after all been informed of my mums changes in 2007 and had time to act. I know others have said they could still reclaim based on their own mistake but i don't think they can. For example, if any care charges or rent etc have been paid because of any capital then if any of that capital would have been reduced by normal spending because of a loss of pension credit then all those care charges and rent etc are up for re-imbursement (the DWP and age uk both agreed when i put this scenario to them). If you know the state of the finances at the original claim date and know for certain there is an assessed income period to the end confront them with it. I did. I'm not usually confrontational but these people will only listen to legal threats. Only if some financial details were withheld at the original claim that would have nullified it do their actions have any basis.

I would contact age uk

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/no-one/we-provide-advice/

they will get someone to ring you back who will actually listen to what you say

if you can work out every aspect of the finances at the time of the claim before then do so.

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

if their finances increased after the claim do you know why? if they lived frugally/well within their means and were able to save then that has nothing to do with the DWP. If you or other family members took them on holiday or took them regular meals or transported them etc etc at your own cost to save them money this has to be considered. I paid a percentage of my mum's care fees because she was not able to access her bank savings for five years. Even the local social services admitted that I funded her to between £10,000 and £17,000 - I would have put my own claim in against the estate or dwp if necessary.

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

this thread on the alzheimers forum says more or less the same but at least you know I'm not making it up

https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/show...nd-Mums-Estate

from my own research it seems that solicitors and even a lot of forums that claim to be god's gift are either completely unaware of assessed income periods etc. I would definitely contact age concern, work out your parents finances as much as you can, gather all letters you can and then ring the DWP and confront them, get in their face and tell them your parents financial situation when the claim was made, their ages at the time, any subsequent changes covered under an assessed income period and then tell them to put up or shut up or else you will sue for the effect it is having on your health and your family.

I still don't actually believe that these people are the DWP. I think it has been outsourced to a firm of solicitors paid by results. The DWP would have the original claim in some form, they would know of any assessed income periods - I think the people from ageuk said that everyone over a certain age was granted one of these of some length in 2003 though I could be wrong on this point but it's worth checking.

Thank you for your kind words, I hope that you can get this sorted out very, very soon as it is disgraceful that they are even allowed to do this and it needs publicising.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Marcus18


I did not thoroughly read your first few posts so apologies for any of my irrelevant comments. Kudos to you for confronting them and glad your case is now closed. Many thanks for sharing your story. There are many similarities to my story, but I'm sorry to say there is a fundamental difference.


I am in state of mind to just give in, but i can't do that either because i don't have the documentation/bank statements that RFET are asking for (see below). I will call AgeUK as you suggest. Why haven;t I called them before? Because I have already had a face to face 2hr meeting with Citizens Advice. I thought both CA and AgeUK would advice the same so why waste AgeUk's time now. CA said to to give RFET what they are asking for and if I have a grievance the to follow the RFET's grievance procedures and IF that doesn;t get me anywhere, then to come back to CA who will then advice me to log a complaint with the Ombudsman. Like I said, I am in state of mind to just give in.


Absolutely agree that the public need to be made aware of how RFET operate, but to be fair the public also need to be made aware of keeping ALL documentation and equally importantly to make sure their family know where the documentation is.


My situation and the reason why I can't just call DWP RFET in the same way you did -
- I do not have any DWP documentation or bank statements for 2003-2015.
- the banks only have statements from 2008.
- the DWP RFET say if the oldest figure I can give them is from 2008, then they will assume that was the value of the account in 2003! This sounds unfair. I'll see what AgeUK say about this.
- DWP RFET now want to see Mum's banks accounts as Dad;s original claim was a joint claim.

With the amount of questions RFET have been asking me it seems obvious they think there has been an overpayment,. But they refuse to state that or give me a figure.

[marcus18]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

i find it very worrying that the citizens advice said to pay up that was what they said to me and it was simply wrong and i really do worry about how many people have done just that. I will be astounded if ageuk give you the same advice. If there are any other avenues of free legal advice that you can access then do so as it is always best to get a few in case one, like we see here, really isn't any help at all. This had been the second major issue i'd had to deal with after my mum's passing. The first which i won't go into details of i was prepared for and thanks to great advice from three places I was extraordinarily well prepared. Again i had kept an extraordinary amount of evidence. This on the other hand was a complete shock. If i hadn't confronted them and got it sorted there and then because of all the evience i had then i know i would have at least suffered a mental breakdown if not worse.

as you say to suggest that a bank account in 2008 will be the same as one five years earlier is ludicrous. There's no way that would stand up in court. eg my mums account was fairly similar between 1994 and 2007 and then it wasn't but because of her homecare and respite fees and rent the difference between 2008 and 2012 was huge. From what you said earlier bout your father it seems incredibly unlikely that the information provided to them at the original claim would not have been 100% true. Don't forget that they would have had to provide evidence at the time in support of their claim - you can't simply claim and say i only have £x in the bank and not have to supply at the very least photocopied evidence and generally produce original documents. The DWP must have the details at the original claim, remember when confronted they admitted they even had my (unnecessary) letter from 2007 informing them of my mothers change of circumstances. If they still have a five or six line letter from ten years ago then i am certain they have the original claim form submitted by your parents. They must also know whether the claim was granted an assessed income period - it is on every document they send out relating to changes in amounts so it would be on the last few lines of the first page of every years annual benefit increase letter. Do you know when the claim was made and/or how old your parents were when the claim was made. did either or both of them turn 80 during the lifetime of that claim. Check with ageuk about whether as a joint claim they would be entitled to twice the entitlement threshold of single claimants like my mother and please let me know what they say. It might take them 48 hours to get someone who knows to ring you back but it will be worth it - if i'd spoken to the bloke who rang me as soon as i got the original letter i wouldn't have been worried at all but i sort of worked out what they were up to (fishing/ambulance chasing), dug out all my (obsessive, I am, I openly admit it but it's paid off big time twice) document keeping and attacked head on.


As for publicising it or how to be prepared to deal with it I have every intention of writing to my MP a week on friday morning and writing to whoever is appointed secretary of state for dwp as i think the way this is done is nothing short of vile and the DWP have a massive amount of evidence at their own fingertips which they could check. They need to start with that inept form and send out a form with the date of the original claim, with the full details of the original claim and ask properly for written explanations of any changes which the probate amount suggests.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

Maruc18,

I am loosing it. I have asked a question three times now not realising I had already posted it twice before!. I am giving up before I have a full on breakdown.

You are truly resilient and it has greatly paid off for you. You can now replace your "obsessive" (document keeping) with "accurate" ;-)

My own resiliency has been eroded but your advice and your story is giving me some hope (although I'm still feeling hopeless knowing I dont have any of Dad's documentation).

Dependant on one final call to AgeUk tomorrow, I give up trying to understand how this works (yes, they've won!).
!
Kudos to you for bringing it to the attentiono of your MP. I have told many of my family

and friends, but as life is too quick, most people only take heed when it is actually

their turn to go through Probate. Otherwise, and to be fair, Brexit / jobs / terror

attacks / football etc are more relevant and immediate.

[Bv123]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Solicitor recomendations

I called AgeUK, but they did not have a "specialist" in these matters so they referred me to the Money Advice Service instead. They also do not have a speacialist in these matters.