Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

[Amethyst]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

Just wondering as I don't recall you saying, did you report the moving with permission and subsequent damage to the police at the time?

[ostell]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

OK, your claim will be in the small claims court. How many witnesses are you going to call? None, only yourself. Rest as sworn witness statements and include estimates for repair.

I recal helping one of my daughters a coup[le of years ago. a "For Sale" sign was fixed to her property (holes drilled in wall etc) but they had got the wrong house. Estate agents said it was nothing to do with them but it was the people they employed to erect the sign. Getting nowhere until a claim submitted and magically the sign was removed and all the damage repaired. The estate agent accepted that it was their agents that caused the damage.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

Just wondering as I don't recall you saying, did you report the moving with permission and subsequent damage to the police at the time?

Compensation order could be made by the magistrate for the £300 losses.

Section 1, Criminal Damage Act 1971

Damage to property, at least recklessly (ie not specific intent. Takes the risk that it was foreseeable to happen.

[JulianS]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

...did you report the moving with(out?) permission and subsequent damage to the police at the time?

I did report the matter to the police who came to have a look (on 17/10/'14) and concluded that it wasn't a strong criminal case (i.e. told me that it was a civil matter - they were, however, very sympathetic & supportive).

[JulianS]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

OK, your claim will be in the small claims court. How many witnesses are you going to call? None, only yourself. Rest as sworn witness statements and include estimates for repair.

Sorry - I'm having a problem interpreting what you're saying - are you asking me or directing me? - I was actually going to call a witness (the one who gave the statement).

Some more context to all of this (written in a rather narrative style for those who have the patience to read it)...

The (willing witness) neighbour is almost too willing to attend a hearing! (during the whole palaver he tried to intervene in a dispute 'tween the Property Management Team supervisor and the ex-tenant who had returned to try to salvage some of his possessions - it ended with the team supervisor squaring-up to my neighbour in the middle of the street in front of the whole neighbourhood. I hope he doesn't come-across as a vexatious witness!)

Sadly this one neighbour is the only person willing to provide a statement and courtroom testimony...

I wasn't there to see all of this but it sounds like a scene out of Eastenders which would be entertaining under any other circumstances... As you can probably gather the whole episode was utterly disgraceful. My neighbour on the other side (a university professor) described the agency's workers as 'thugs' (sadly he wasn't around to see the car being moved but witnessed other 'acts' in the eviction).

My (willing witness) neighbour's elderly father stated that it's impossible to move a car in the manner that it was moved without causing some sort of damage... sadly he won't say this in court nor does he have accreditted expertise in the area of vehicle transportation...

3 days after the car was moved one of the supervising members of the Estate Agency's property management team (the same one who squared-up to my witness above) was at the house supervising repairs to the flat from which the hoarding tenant had been evicted.

He told me that they'd had to move the car. I mentioned that there was fresh damage to the bodywork. We both inspected the car and he was adamant that they'd been very careful when they moved it. He accused me of lying, stating that he'd worked in bodywork repair and that the damage was clearly historical (i.e. it was already damaged before they moved it). I do have some very blurry photos of the car (before it was moved) standing next to the large pile of hoarded possessions on the driveway. The photos do indicate that, at that point, there was no sign of damage to the car. Sadly I'm not sure how reliable these photos would be in court.

I wish I'd had a recording device with me that day! It was a really busy time for me... 2 days after the damage was done I finished my contract at work so I was busy with all the issues associated with becoming unemployed... and 1 day after the damage was done my sister arrived to stay from New Zealand to visit for the first time in 10yrs. so I was accommodating here with all the associated emotional & hospitality demands... Sounds like I'm fishing for sympathy but I'm actually trying to give context to the whole situation...

I guess from this it would be possible to identify precisely who moved the car... but from earlier input into this thread I suspect I'd need fingerprints & DNA evidence for this to be credible in the small claims court... Like I say - I'd pretty-much given-up on all this by Sat. eve.

I called TPOS today and we're going to see whether the £150 offer is still on the table - at least that would be more secure 'cos it's based on the mishandling of my complaint and is backed-up my good documentary evidence and a conclusion & subsequent recommendation from TPOS - even if it is 9mnths old now (I bet they try to barter me down :tinysmile_twink_t2

ATB

JulianS

[JulianS]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

Bringing claims in tort are not easy... ...in criminal law, the onus is on the prosecution to prove liability.

All of which I sort-of understand from a lay-perspective and am grateful to you for pointing-out...

The gist of my immediately-prior post was to raise a question about the extent to which such principles/concepts are explicitly & rigorously applied in the small claims process?

May I ask as to the extent of your experience seeing cases proceed via the small claims track?

I was speaking (briefly) to a retired (yet still voluntarily active) barrister and a retired court photographer over the weekend and they simply told me I was overthinking things.

Issues are proportionality were raised (which I only have most basic, broad understanding of) - the barrister gave example where absolutely no pre-action protocol has been followed, seemingly making no difference to the judges view of the case... I've been rigidly & diligently sticking to pre-action protocols (as advised by much of the guidance out there) so it was a bit of a shock to find-out that, in-practice, they may not matter so much...

The place of inference & probabilities were brought into the conversation - it was suggested to me that it's a reasonable inference that whoever placed the skip moved my car & caused the damage... i.e. no mention of causality tests as far as I'm aware...

Anyway - I'm going off-track a bit and I'm sure that you have good ripostes to my questions & comments above...

Incidentally, the (ex) barrister advised me to accept the £150 offer if it was still available... so there is a consensus emerging!

So much for bowing-out of this thread...:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

ATB

JulianS

[Openlaw15]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

All of which I sort-of understand from a lay-perspective and am grateful to you for pointing-out...

The gist of my immediately-prior post was to raise a question about the extent to which such principles/concepts are explicitly & rigorously applied in the small claims process?

May I ask as to the extent of your experience seeing cases proceed via the small claims track?

I was speaking (briefly) to a retired (yet still voluntarily active) barrister and a retired court photographer over the weekend and they simply told me I was overthinking things.

Issues are proportionality were raised (which I only have most basic, broad understanding of) - the barrister gave example where absolutely no pre-action protocol has been followed, seemingly making no difference to the judges view of the case... I've been rigidly & diligently sticking to pre-action protocols (as advised by much of the guidance out there) so it was a bit of a shock to find-out that, in-practice, they may not matter so much...

The place of inference & probabilities were brought into the conversation - it was suggested to me that it's a reasonable inference that whoever placed the skip moved my car & caused the damage... i.e. no mention of causality tests as far as I'm aware...

Anyway - I'm going off-track a bit and I'm sure that you have good ripostes to my questions & comments above...

Incidentally, the (ex) barrister advised me to accept the £150 offer if it was still available... so there is a consensus emerging!

So much for bowing-out of this thread...:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

ATB

JulianS

I studied law Julian, which applies more to the higher courts but the county court is more likely to be more lenient in claims simply to encourage claims to be settled without too much formality. If that £150 is still on offer it would be much easier to accept it than go to court.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

I did report the matter to the police who came to have a look (on 17/10/'14) and concluded that it wasn't a strong criminal case (i.e. told me that it was a civil matter - they were, however, very sympathetic & supportive).

the agency offered you £150, you have evidence of the property damage, your property was damaged by moving your car from the driveway you were using to park your car. Did the police actually investigate whether there was evidence to bring charges? If so, what specific reasons did they give you other than saying it's a civil matter, which they probably could to avoid the hassle.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

Sorry - I'm having a problem interpreting what you're saying - are you asking me or directing me? - I was actually going to call a witness (the one who gave the statement).

Some more context to all of this (written in a rather narrative style for those who have the patience to read it)...

The (willing witness) neighbour is almost too willing to attend a hearing! (during the whole palaver he tried to intervene in a dispute 'tween the Property Management Team supervisor and the ex-tenant who had returned to try to salvage some of his possessions - it ended with the team supervisor squaring-up to my neighbour in the middle of the street in front of the whole neighbourhood. I hope he doesn't come-across as a vexatious witness!)

Sadly this one neighbour is the only person willing to provide a statement and courtroom testimony...

I wasn't there to see all of this but it sounds like a scene out of Eastenders which would be entertaining under any other circumstances... As you can probably gather the whole episode was utterly disgraceful. My neighbour on the other side (a university professor) described the agency's workers as 'thugs' (sadly he wasn't around to see the car being moved but witnessed other 'acts' in the eviction).

My (willing witness) neighbour's elderly father stated that it's impossible to move a car in the manner that it was moved without causing some sort of damage... sadly he won't say this in court nor does he have accreditted expertise in the area of vehicle transportation...

3 days after the car was moved one of the supervising members of the Estate Agency's property management team (the same one who squared-up to my witness above) was at the house supervising repairs to the flat from which the hoarding tenant had been evicted.

He told me that they'd had to move the car. I mentioned that there was fresh damage to the bodywork. We both inspected the car and he was adamant that they'd been very careful when they moved it. He accused me of lying, stating that he'd worked in bodywork repair and that the damage was clearly historical (i.e. it was already damaged before they moved it). I do have some very blurry photos of the car (before it was moved) standing next to the large pile of hoarded possessions on the driveway. The photos do indicate that, at that point, there was no sign of damage to the car. Sadly I'm not sure how reliable these photos would be in court.

I wish I'd had a recording device with me that day! It was a really busy time for me... 2 days after the damage was done I finished my contract at work so I was busy with all the issues associated with becoming unemployed... and 1 day after the damage was done my sister arrived to stay from New Zealand to visit for the first time in 10yrs. so I was accommodating here with all the associated emotional & hospitality demands... Sounds like I'm fishing for sympathy but I'm actually trying to give context to the whole situation...

I guess from this it would be possible to identify precisely who moved the car... but from earlier input into this thread I suspect I'd need fingerprints & DNA evidence for this to be credible in the small claims court... Like I say - I'd pretty-much given-up on all this by Sat. eve.

I called TPOS today and we're going to see whether the £150 offer is still on the table - at least that would be more secure 'cos it's based on the mishandling of my complaint and is backed-up my good documentary evidence and a conclusion & subsequent recommendation from TPOS - even if it is 9mnths old now (I bet they try to barter me down :tinysmile_twink_t2

ATB

JulianS

hearsay evidence is admissible in a criminal court.

[JulianS]

Re: Damage to my car – Is my case enough to proceed to court or is there more to do?

Hi

A quick update about this whole business.

As mentioned - about 12 months ago I'd received an offer (via The Property Ombudsman Service (TPOS)) of £150 to settle all aspects of the case out-of-court - ostensibly as a result of the defendant's (i.e. the Estate Agency) failure to respond to my complaints properly.

After a few online discussions, the consensus of opinion/advice was that it would be best for me to take this offer, if still available, rather than go through the hassle of taking the matter to court, risk losing and paying (albeit meagre) court costs.

The good news is that the offer was still available, I've accepted it and I'm in the process of setting-up how to receive it via the security of TPOS i.e. I don't have to worry about dealing with the defendant if they don't pay-up.

Took me quite a lot of effort to be rational & sober, accept the compromise and get over my anger & desire to take the matter as far as I could.

Once again - many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread (especially des8, Amethyst, Openlaw15, ostell, ).

Hopefully this will be the end of the matter.

All the best!

JulianS