Ppi Claims For The Deceased

[brummie]

Hi to all on the forum!!

I have recently claimed ppi's from nat west on the grounds of my self employment. these relate to single life policies and also a joint life policy against a mortgage held with my late wife who passed away in 2008. the bank has made an offer for these policies, but i have not yet agreed to them as i am also challenging the status of the servicing account, mainly that if the amounts offered by the bank had not been taken the servicing account would not have gone into overdraught on a regular basis thus reducing charges. do i make any sense???
my late wife also held a number of credit cards and loans which were all settled in full from her estae. at the time i requested the organisations look at policies on the accounts, some had policies but some had lapsed etc. at the time i was not in the right frame of mind but now feel that i would like to challenge these firms.
has anybody had a similar experience, or do the team feel that these claims can be up-held?
Regards and thanks for looking.

[leclerc]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

I am not sure how you would argue the case ie consequence of paying PPI leading directly to the issues of charges on the account. If they are accepting that the policy was missold then that is a good starter because at least regardless of anything else a payout might be made. Are there any arrears on any other accounts you have with the bank.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

I have kept the servicing account open and just in and out of the arranged overdraught, whilst transfering dd's to other accounts and moving my buisiness account to another bank. The bank has stated that the lending will be cleared from the funds issued with the PPI's which is fine. I can clearly prove that at times the bank has deducted funds from the account to itself in priority over dd's and out-going payments, thus incouring charges. My initial request for statements from the bank returned with the 6 years of data comment, to which i produced statements in my possesion dating back to 2001. The bank has now supplied statements back to 2001 and forwarded to the PPI team. My initial application for a claim filed in-branch seemed to dissapear, until i fired a warning shot via the ombudsman. Hey-presto, 6 number offers appeared in the post totaling just over £12k!!! My thoughts then were merry christmas, as would anybody's, but i feel that i have a valid argument with the bank's exessive charges. What may have worked in my favour is that i filled a complaint about bank charges back in 2008 which may still be on record. I did not persue the matter at that time as i had other things on my mind with my wife's terminal illness. This is just the tip of the ice-burg with Nat West, as i have made substantial complaints about various other aspects of our relationship. Too many eggs in one basket is definately the case....

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Too many eggs in one basket is definately the case....

Loyalty has no value in today's banking world, it seems.

Hi Brummie, and welcome to you. I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your dear wife, which clearly affected you deeply. I'm glad that you appear to be able to deal with the more mundane matters of life here now.

I found it interesting that Natwest appear to have responded to your DSAR by sending CONSIDERABLY less data than they actually held on you. I do believe that would have been a clear breach of the DPA. and - whilst we would not wish to see their Data Controller locked up for a criminal breach - it may well be a bit of useful ammunition. As I understand it, there is NO provision within the DPA that allows a Data Controller to send ONLY the last 6 years' worth of data. True, they are generally expected to retain data for 6 years minimum for other purposes (eg. tax, etc.) - but if they have data going back further, then I do believe they are obliged to supply it ALL.

Regarding the PPI, it appears that this relates to a number of fixed-amount loans, for which Turboman and I have developed spreadsheets in order to calculate what to expect as PPI reclaim settlement(s). So we can help with these calculations, I believe.

Regarding the 'servicing' account - this is something which I personally believe should be brought into the equation, because it can usually be demonstrated that charges made to this account would not have been made if the PPI had not been sold on the loans serviced by this account. We currently have a claim ongoing with the FOS where several consecutive loans were consolidated by each other (thus, there was a 'carry forward' element of PPI) - and these were all serviced by the one current account, which suffered from consequential penalty charges. This has so far proved difficult, with the FOS and the lender playing 'ping-pong' with the claim, but it IS still ongoing.

I think we need to deal with each of the loans in chronological order, paying attention to any consolidation aspects (which may or may not apply). Alongside this, I think we should run a spreadsheet of the servicing account, as this will be dependent on the weekly/monthly balances of each account being serviced.

Regarding reclaiming PPI where the claimant - or one of the joint claimants - is deceased, this is not an area I can help with. I hope that someone can help with this, by pointing out any possible obstacles regarding the deceased's estate.

Hope I've helped, mate.

Bill.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Hi Bill and seasons greetings to you all.

Thank you for your kind words. Losing my wife at the age of 43 left me with a choice of two directions - either drinking myself to death or kicking my own butt so hard it woke me up. Thankfully i chose the latter, but do still like a tipple lol. If there are any members on the forum experiencing similar circumstances, then please talk to me. Sadly, i know what i'm talking about....

Now then;
The SARS team has provided bank statements going back to 2001 for the servicing account. The fact is that i have held an account with the bank since 1992. Should i persue and go back all the way?
The PPI'S indeed relate to fixed amount personal loans witch were indeed consolidated forming a chain. I copy the bank's offer below;

MY OFFER,

WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE YOU AN OFFER THAT WOULD PUT YOU BACK INTO THE POSITION YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN IN IF YOU HAD NOT TAKEN OUT THE PPI FROM THE OUTSET.
THIS OFFER CONSISTS OF A REFUND OF PPI PREMIUMS PAID PLUS INTEREST CHARGED ON THEM. IN ADDITION WE WILL ADD 8% SIMPLE INTEREST TOTO ALL PPI PAYMENTS YOU HAVE MADE.WE WILL ALSO INCLUDE A EXTRA PAYMENT, EQUAL TO A FURTHER 8% SIMPLE INTEREST, FOR THE PERIOD THAT YOUR COMPLAINT HAS BEEN ON HOLD DUE TO THE BRITISH BANKER'S ASSOCIATION LEGAL ACTION.THIS OFFER IS IN LINE WITH FINANCIAL SERVICES AUTHORITY GUIDANCE. UN-QUOTE.

The bank has also made offers quoting;

IT HAS COME TO LIGHT THAT THIS LOAD FORMS PART OF A CONSOLIDATED LOANS CHAIN.....
IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HAS PASSED SINCE YOU MADE YOUR COMPLAINT, AS A GESTURE OF GOODWILL AND WITHOUT ANY ADMITION OF LIABILITY, THE BANK IS PREPARED TO MAKE YOU THE OFFER DETAILED BELOW.

These offers relate to smaller amounts, but nevertheless re-payments. Do you think they are worth the time and effort challenging or should i accept them? If i do accept the offers, will it have any reflection on my claim for charges against the servicing account, or can i accept the offers with conditions relating to my other claims. I still have an on-going claim for a joint mortgage PPI and a case forming for a joint credit card. All, naturally, paid off in full. Seems that i kept my side of the bargain and paid the bank back.your words ring true, Bill. There is no value to loyalty in today's banking world...

Regards,

Brummie.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Hi to all,

I have just been putting together my PPI claim against Nat-West for my joint mortgage, to which i was the first named on the account. Whilst photo-copying the mortgage agreement for the benefit of the PPI team i noticed that my late wife's date of birth had been incorrectly entered in BOTH THE AGREEMENT AND ALSO THE PPI MANDATE! They made her 20 years younger than she was, bless! I am sure this would have amused her no end, but my initial thoughts are that;
If we had made a claim at any stage, would this have played a factor with the under-writers as the information was incorrect?

See! I told you all this was a juicy one.... I am strangely starting to enjoy myself. Is this perverse?

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Hi Bill and seasons greetings to you all.

Thank you for your kind words. Losing my wife at the age of 43 left me with a choice of two directions - either drinking myself to death or kicking my own butt so hard it woke me up. Thankfully i chose the latter, but do still like a tipple lol. If there are any members on the forum experiencing similar circumstances, then please talk to me. Sadly, i know what i'm talking about....
That's an early age to lose a life partner, Brummie. I'm sure she would not have wanted you to take the former path - good on ya. It may be that you could help others by your experience - and thus find much-deserved solace in so doing. There is a section within this forum site for such issues, and I'm sure your input would be most valued, should you choose to look in.
Now then;
The SARS team has provided bank statements going back to 2001 for the servicing account. The fact is that i have held an account with the bank since 1992. Should i persue and go back all the way?
If YOU have your statements, etc., going back that far, then it may be worth considering, as the FOS does not apply the Limitations Act to its' rulings. But - if there is no evidence or proof, then there is no case to pursue. If you have these historic records, then I would suggest that you get the lender to confirm in writing that they have NO earlier data. They cannot then challenge your own - PROVIDED that you can produce it.
This also depends upon what you will be claiming over this earlier period. If it's PPI, then go for it. If it's penalties - then we may have to delve a little deper, first.
The PPI'S indeed relate to fixed amount personal loans witch were indeed consolidated forming a chain. I copy the bank's offer below;

MY OFFER,

WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE YOU AN OFFER THAT WOULD PUT YOU BACK INTO THE POSITION YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN IN IF YOU HAD NOT TAKEN OUT THE PPI FROM THE OUTSET.
THIS OFFER CONSISTS OF A REFUND OF PPI PREMIUMS PAID PLUS INTEREST CHARGED ON THEM. IN ADDITION WE WILL ADD 8% SIMPLE INTEREST TOTO ALL PPI PAYMENTS YOU HAVE MADE.WE WILL ALSO INCLUDE A EXTRA PAYMENT, EQUAL TO A FURTHER 8% SIMPLE INTEREST, FOR THE PERIOD THAT YOUR COMPLAINT HAS BEEN ON HOLD DUE TO THE BRITISH BANKER'S ASSOCIATION LEGAL ACTION.THIS OFFER IS IN LINE WITH FINANCIAL SERVICES AUTHORITY GUIDANCE. UN-QUOTE.

The bank has also made offers quoting;

IT HAS COME TO LIGHT THAT THIS LOAD FORMS PART OF A CONSOLIDATED LOANS CHAIN.....
IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HAS PASSED SINCE YOU MADE YOUR COMPLAINT, AS A GESTURE OF GOODWILL AND WITHOUT ANY ADMITION OF LIABILITY, THE BANK IS PREPARED TO MAKE YOU THE OFFER DETAILED BELOW.

These offers relate to smaller amounts, but nevertheless re-payments. Do you think they are worth the time and effort challenging or should i accept them? If i do accept the offers, will it have any reflection on my claim for charges against the servicing account, or can i accept the offers with conditions relating to my other claims. I still have an on-going claim for a joint mortgage PPI and a case forming for a joint credit card. All, naturally, paid off in full. Seems that i kept my side of the bargain and paid the bank back.your words ring true, Bill. There is no value to loyalty in today's banking world...

Regards,

Brummie.

It is good that they are at least paying 'lip-service' to the FSA/FOS guidelines, Brummie. These dictate that the lender looks into the aspect of 'consolidatory' loan-sequences. However, this is often not looked into properly, and I think it may well be worth at least taking the trouble to evaluate their offer before we decide whether to accept it or challenge it. These consolidations can literally 'roll forward' into quite a considerable sum, but the maths are often beyond even the clerks who calculate the refund offers, I believe. You could easily be fobbed off with a low offer, methinks.

Choice is yours, though, guv'nor. You can do the figures yourself - and we WILL help you with that - but it needs time and effort on YOUR part. Or you can accept their offer before evaluating it. Your choice, good sir.

Regarding the servicing account...THIS is a separate aspect of the claim - and is DEPENDENT upon the outcome of the original PPI reclaim on the loan accounts. So, IMO, it cannot be launched as a claim until the original loan claims are settled. Only then, can it be deemed to have been truly 'consequential,' IMHO. My belief, therefore, is that you should completely finalise the sequential loan PPI reclaim first. Only THEN can you genuinely quantify the consequential losses involved from the servicing account.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Bill,

I took a look at the section of the forum you mentioned....obviously the legal and fiscal side of things i would leave well alone, but would certainly share my experiences with people in a similar position. If admin want to consider putting up a "sticky" then i would certainly consider it....

I do not have statements going back that far, but see no harm in requesting if the bank does. They provided "electronic " data for the years 01 to 03, so maybe then can provide it for previous years?

With regards to the calculations; i am willing to give it a go, but bear in mind you are talking to an electrician not Miss Vordeman lol. I can get around exel slowly, but do have an accountant who is a wizz at it....i'm sure he would help out. If you would be so kind as to let me know what i need to do i will start preparing. I presume i will need to request the original agreements?

Now to the servicing account.... I have been dealing with a chap at the corporate complaints centre on a number of issues and complaints that i have raised with the bank. He has been helpfull with providing information etc., but does not deal with PPI claims directly. I did ask him for his opinion on the servicing account and he suggested that i reject the offers and request the PPI team review the account and state whether or not a claim is to be upheld.
I tend to side with your comment that it should be dealt with as a seperate entity, but will welcome your opinions on his views.

Brummie.

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Bill,

I took a look at the section of the forum you mentioned....obviously the legal and fiscal side of things i would leave well alone, but would certainly share my experiences with people in a similar position. If admin want to consider putting up a "sticky" then i would certainly consider it....
That would be good, Brummie. If you are proposing to tell your story in a 'non-discussion' thread, then you could ask admin to lock it, and that will prevent further posts from being made in that thread. They might also 'sticky' it on a temporary or permanent basis. Maybe write your story in a Word document first, then submit it to admin with your request for locking and stickying, before posting it openly.
I do not have statements going back that far, but see no harm in requesting if the bank does. They provided "electronic " data for the years 01 to 03, so maybe then can provide it for previous years?
It would certainly do no harm to try, I reckon. Perhaps politely reminding them that if they do hold this data - and have not provided it to you in response to your DSAR(s), then they are in breach of the DPA. If they have it (in a 'relevant filing system') - then they MUST provide it, no matter how old it is.
With regards to the calculations; i am willing to give it a go, but bear in mind you are talking to an electrician not Miss Vordeman lol. I can get around exel slowly, but do have an accountant who is a wizz at it....i'm sure he would help out. If you would be so kind as to let me know what i need to do i will start preparing. I presume i will need to request the original agreements?
Turboman and I have a spreadsheet for fixed-amouint loans, and I will post a copy of it for you. Please download a copy of it, then make further copies from that for each of the loans you are claiming on. We also have a different spready for credit card accounts, if you need that. Please bear in mind that we are constantly 'evolving' these spreadies, so there are still a few glitches. If you would like us to check them for you, then by all means post the completed spreadies here. If you prefer more confidentiality, then Turbo and I have a dedicated and private email address for sending them to here:-

Simiantics@Gmail.com

I assume that you don't have the loan agreements yourself, now. If they have not sent you copies of the agreements in response to your DSAR(s), then I doubt if they will now have them - but, again, there is no harm in asking for these. If any of the loans are still active, then you could request a copy of the agreement(s) in a CCA s.77-79 request. If they cannot (or will not) supply the agreements, then it may well be worth asking them for the figures upon which they based their redress calculations for each of the loans. The FOS guidelines state that you are entitled to an understandable explanation of how your offer of redress has been calculated. Once we have this info, we can put it in the spreadsheet.

If this is not available, then it MAY be possible to 'reverse-engineer' an approximation from whatever figures you might have (eg., bank statements, etc.), but this would be difficult, and should be the last resort.


Now to the servicing account.... I have been dealing with a chap at the corporate complaints centre on a number of issues and complaints that i have raised with the bank. He has been helpfull with providing information etc., but does not deal with PPI claims directly. I did ask him for his opinion on the servicing account and he suggested that i reject the offers and request the PPI team review the account and state whether or not a claim is to be upheld.
I tend to side with your comment that it should be dealt with as a seperate entity, but will welcome your opinions on his views.

Brummie.

Claiming 'consequential losses' on a servicing account is not a well-trod path, Brummie. In fact, I have not seen if such a claim has been successfully made anywhere yet. I am currently awaiting a FOS decision on the one I have been working on, and I don't think the FOS are going to uphold it without an argument.

The final 'consequential' claim amount cannot be calculated until the PPI reclaims on ALL of the accounts it serviced have been settled, so I'm not in agreement with the complaints guy's suggestion. My own suggestion would be to calculate and evaluate the PPI reclaim on the loans, and this should be done as a single claim upon the entire sequence of loans, to take account of the 'roll-forward' of PPI from each loan to the next. When we get to the stage of settling the PPI claim on the loans, then I would suggest that you accept the final settlement of this PPI - BUT DO NOT accept it "In Full and Final Settlement." Point out that you will be submitting a claim for expenses incurred on the servicing account as a direct consequence of the mis-sold PPI on the accounts it was servicing.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Bill

Thanks for all your help and effort on this - i am willing to tread the path. Let's bring it on.

The PPI team have provided me with "example" calculations attached to the offers. I will write to them and request they provide me with the figures that they have based their calculations on. Then if i have a go at the numbers and cross-check them with the bank's maybe they will have another look at the numbers to see if they have made any mistakes in their calculations.

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

OK., then, Brummie - let's do it.

Beer's always useful in this game - speshully at this time of year !!! Had one myself, now - but only after sorting out a 'latest' version of the spreadsheet.

Anyways....here's my latest effort. It's Turbo's creation, but with bells and whistles added by me - much to his dismay, usually. If you start with the FIRST loan in the sequence, then we are, taking the first step of the journey, my friend. We need to do this in sequence. Hope I've made sense.

.....had a beer, too....!!!

Please bear in mind that these spreadies are still being evolved, and Turbo and I are constantly "in discussion" over them, so it is still very much a "dynamic" arena of combat.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

OK thanks Bill- spredie downloaded and has pole-position on my desktop.

An interesting delivery by Royal Mail this morning.......
A full set of bank statements for the joint account ( servicing account) dated 1998 to december 2011 and what looks like a full set of statements for the loans showing re-payment history and settlement history.
I am now going the seperate all the statements into relevant order to show the loan information first.

It could take some time.....

Brummie.

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Good stuff, Brummie. Yes, separate the statements into each account, as I think we will need the amounts and dates from these. We will need to work through each loan in date order, so start with the earliest loan, and try and fill in enough info into a copy of the spready. Once you have enough data, it will 'open out,' and show a projection of the loan based on this. You then need to check this projection and make any corrections necessary.

Once you have done this first one, the others should be a doddle.

The final job will be the 'consequential losses' - and this will take a bit more time and effort.

[brummie]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

Hi everybody - Happy new year!!

Okey-dokey.... relating to the spreadie you kindly sent me, and the information required to fill in the fields;
I do not have enough information to fill in all the fields for the spread to work properly. Firstly, i do not have the correct durations of the loan agreements, as they were all settled before their full term with consolidations. The bank has not provided me with the agreements, and i doubt they will. Secondly, my request to the bank for their "working" calculations has been dismissed. After managing to get through to them on the phone, they have stated that they have supplied me with an example of their methods, and this is all that they are willing to provide. Their advice was to take it to the ombudsman, who in turn quoted me a 12 month waiting list. ( very busy at the ombudsman's office, it seems!) So at the moment it seems that i may be flogging a dead horse, and may have to capitulate on this one....

BUT......

That does NOT mean that it's all over. I have submitted my claim for the joint mortgage and credit cards, and will now avidly persue the charges applied to the servicing account. The ombudsman said that if the estate was settled,( as it is), and if i was sole benefactor and can prove, ( which i can), then i have the right to approach the lenders.

Anybody got any ideas on wording the next chapter?

Regards,
Brummie.

[Bill-K]

Re: Ppi Claims For The Deceased

I don't think you should consider it as over, yet, Brummie but you may need to be persistent. We may be able to get more info from the lender(s), if we quote them some of the FSA Dispute Resolution Handbook within Policy Statement PS10/12. What they are 'willing' to do - and what they are 'required' to do are not nessecelery the same thing !!!

DISP APP 3.2.7 states that they should automatically deal with all other related accounts (eg., consolidations), and refund PPI on those.

The firm should consider all of its sales of payment protection contracts to the complainant in respect of re-financed loans that were rolled up into the loan covered by the payment protection contract that is the subject of the complaint. The firm should consider the cumulative financial impact on the complainant of any previous breaches or failings in those sales.

DISP APP 3.9.4 states that they should explain their calculations properly and clearly.

The firm should make any offer of redress to the complainant in a fair and balanced way. In particular, the firm should explain clearly to the complainant the basis for the redress offered including how any compensation is calculated and, where relevant, the rescheduling of the loan, and the consequences of accepting the offer of redress.

I don't think they have adhered to these guidelines by fobbing you off in the way that they appear to have done. This may mean they will be required to pay you further compensation by the FOS for this.

If the lender has sent you offers, then I think you are entitled to know - at the very least - what figures their calculations are based on. If they have no agreement or other such details, then I believe you should be given sufficient details of their calculations to enable you to make an informed decision on whether their offer is reasonable and acceptable. They have clearly not given you this info, IMHO.

Regarding the 'consequential losses' on the servicing account - my argument for this is based on the fact that DISP APP 3.7.2 states that it is "the consumer" - and NOT "the account" - which should be put back in the position they would have been in if they had taken out the loan(s) without any mis-sold PPI - and to compensate them if they have been out-of-pocket in the meantime.

Where the firm concludes that the complainant would not have bought the payment protection contract he bought, and the firm is not using the alternative approach to redress (set out in ¦ DISP App 3.7.7 E to ¦ 3.7.15 E) or other appropriate redress (see ¦ DISP App 3.8), the firm should, as far as practicable, put the complainant in the position he would have been if he had not bought any payment protection contract.

We're not finished yet, say I !!!