A Newby says Hello

**enaid** · 12th April 2010, 17:22:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Hello NWV and a very warm welcome to Beagles, get yer breath back and have a look around, if you need any help finding stuff give a shout.
Enaid x

**natweststaffmember** · 12th April 2010, 19:05:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

NWV, a very warm welcome to you and I am sure we can help. I did receive your PM there and I am sure the guys here will hopefully make you laugh even more than you cry......(they make me cry a lot, pmsl, with laughter of course!!)

**Natwestvictim** · 12th April 2010, 19:50:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Thanks for the welcome, I feel like I'm amongst friends already.
Still trying to get my head round things, but it will all clear one day - hopefully.

**PocketTheDifference** · 13th April 2010, 10:25:AM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Sombody on here will have been through similar, Brill help here, since i've joined solved a lot of difficult situations out for me and many more to come - saved me money - got me money back - so hold on and when advice comes its normally very helpfull and will hopfulyl make u feel less like your being dumped on

**Natwestvictim** · 19th May 2010, 22:23:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

In October 2006 Nat West put me onto a fee paying account despite my specific intructions not to do this.
The charges made me overdrawn as I did not know they were coming out, so I then incurred more charges on D/Ds and S/Os etc, followed by higher overdraft, and so it went on.
Despite many letters and calls etc I got nowhere. They lost the paperwork from CAB with my financial breakdown and offer to pay 3 times, once was when I had even gone to the bank and they had faxed it to the department on the branch's fax machine.
Since about August 2008 I have been trying to get a paying in book so that I can keep a record of my payments - partly because I can't trust them to know what they are doing any more, and also because when I tried to pay in over the counter without my bank card (destroyed per their intructions) I was told that they could not take payments on a closed account without paperwork.

Last year I finally managed to get an offer to refund some of the bank charges (same offer sent twice within a week) but they lost the acceptance form I sent back.
I got my MP involved but they gave him the run around too, totally ignoring anything that might prove they had made a boo-boo.
They claimed I had not sent my acceptance back, and various other comments which were totally untrue, BUT did reoffer the refund, which again I accepted in March this year. Once again I went to the branch to get the form faxed down to the person named and had the original sent through the internal mail. I had also asked her in an e-mail where my paying in book was as it had still not arrived after all this time.

after hearing nothing for 4 weeks about what was happening I got another solicitor's letter about the debt, I rang the bank again to find out the state of play to be told that THEY NO LONGER DO PAYING IN BOOKS and haven't for some time.

The update is that after I got my MP involved the bank told him I had not accepted the goodwill offer they had made to refund the charges under the hardship allowance.
What actually happened is that they had lost the forms I had signed.
They then tried to take me to court for the full amount so I put in a request to have the case transfered to near me to be heard and to explain that the figure the bank is claiming I owe includes the sum that they were supposedly refunding. How can they claim they are owed money that they were in the process of refunding and get a judgement for the full amount?

Because my MP got involved they reissued the refund offer which I accepted (again) and heard nothing for 4 weeks. No acknowledgement that the acceptance had arrived, was being processed or anything.
Suddenly a letter came from the new solicitors (Cobbetts) enclosing a copy of the Judgement relating to the bank charges refunds. They told me that I had no valid reason to have my bank charges refunded, that there was no legal basis to have my case set aside, and if I didn't retract my request they were going to submit for costs to be awarded aginst me as well.

This is depite their intructions coming from the bank who were busily refunding the charges as they were preparing the documents, and the case was not about the bank charges as such, but about the repercussions of the banks (in)actions.

How will that work out in the Court when they are trying to have an order made to pay their clients money that the clients have already given me back as a goodwill gesture.

Latest update on the saga.
Nat west confirmed that the £7000+ they were taking me to Court for in March included the £1100+ they were supposed to have refunded to the account in Bank Charges. (I got it to a lot higher, but something is better than nothing).
They were supposed to be writing to me to confirm that the refund was going/had gone through and what the correct outstanding balance would be so that I could begin paying them back - presumably with something other than a paying in book for a closed account.

I have been sent notice by their solicitor that they are going to be taking me to court for a charge to be put on my house FOR THE FULL AMOUNT - which includes the refunded charges.
They confirm that the refund of bank charges money has finally been put into my account (now ex account) but they have continued to ask for the full amount, before refund, claiming it is the correct figure as they were notified after it went in, even though it is exactly the same sum as before.
The bank was supposed to have been in touch to tell them that the refund was going through and to alter it. They were supposedly also meant to be getting in touch with me about it, but didn't so I have to assume they didn't instruct the solicitors either.

The bank have sent nothing to confirm the true amount due, or how to pay it into the account to reduce the balance, or acknowledge that I even rang them up.
I'm now with another bank and have an account that does not allow an Overdraft facility, has no chequebook, no Standing Order or Direct Debit so I need something to be able to prove I've paid, as I have no confidence in Nat west at all now. I also have to be able to pay in cash.

I have copies of the offers from CAB to Nat West, the first was made 1st August 2007, the second (copy document of first) dated 12th November 2008, third copy was sent via NW fax machine to Ron Teerling (Chief Administrative Officer RBS)18th February 2009.
It still hadn't been logged on the system by 6th April 2009 when I rang to find out the status. But they had arranged to have a Debt Recovery Agent send out a notice while they were still supposed to be making extensive enquiries.
These enquiries were SO indepth that they didn't even notice that I was asking (again) where my paying in book was when, as I found out only in the last few days, they had stopped doing them.

The Court papers have arrived, they are claiming for the whole amount, including the refunded bank charges, which went into my dead/frozen account on the 8th March.
My defence was that they did not arrive in time for me to log a counter arguement, that the money they were claiming for included money they were supposed to be paying me back, so the figures were wrong.
I was also going to point out that they were preventing me from paying back the offered sum because the local branch refused to take cash without the paying in book, and they had not sent one out.
I don't know if it has any relevance but as yet I still have had no written acknowledgement that they have had, and accepted my offer of repayment.

I've got all the paperwork in order and been through it.
There is no acceptance of being transfered to Advantage Gold account.
There is no request to have my O/D raised. There is an written admission from the Chief Exec that they should have reduced my O/D limit after the first consolidation loan was arranged. He claims that I must have asked them to raise it, and asked me to send a copy of the paperwork.
If the investigation he said he had arranged was as thorough as he claimed, he would know that it did not exist.

Most of the money they say I owe is from the court costs and solicitor's fees and interest charges AFTER the CAB had sent the first set of repayment proposals in, which they claim they did not get.
Actually they said they didn't get the permission to discuss with a third party form about the repayment plan, SO they must have got the actual figures and surely they could have contacted me directly.
Just a cynical way of ramping up the charges and refusing to help?
For example - my O/D limit was finally set at £500, but they are claiming it is now owing over £1500 on it. That is not my spending.

While I have been getting all the paperwork into order ready to go to Court I found a booklet from the Court advising that you should be given a paying in book/slip to prove that your payments have been made.

Just to be on the safe side, and to prove I have tried to get things moving I went into the local Nat West branch and paid in all the cash I had been putting to one side waiting for the payment book, as they had originally refused to accept it without one.
They still didn't give me one despite several requests, which is why they want to make the claim against me for non payment, when all along I had wanted to pay, but they wouldn't give me the means.

A few days ago I was finally informed by someone in the call centre, after she confirmed it with another staff member, that they had stopped doing paying in books 'ages ago'.
So imagine my surprise when I went into the same branch that had rejected my initial attempts to pay in cash to a frozen account all that time ago.
Not only did they take my cash without a blink, they also (and this is the weirdest bit) ordered me a paying in book, which should be here in 7-10 working days.

I have broken down the costs they claim I owe into various groups - the original O/D, the interest and charges for bouncing S/O's, D/D's etc, the loans taken out to cover thes costs, fees for sending out letters, court costs and solicitor's fee they charged after the CAB had contacted them in the first instance requesting a freeze and offer to repay, and any other costs.
That way I should be able to explain where the figures come from.

Natwest claiming £7391.15
Natwest refunded £1127.00
Balance left £5264.15
Out of that there are extra bank charges and interest of £918.00 on my current account (over and above the £500 limit I got them to set it to) so my current account is £1418 in the red which is not me going out and spending)
£455.00 Court costs which they added on after they were supposed to be in negotiation with CAB.
£266.75 difference between what they offered as a goodwill gesture and my figures using the calculator on this site (that is only from June 2006 to July 2008).
There is also another £1291.10 in additional charges and interest they have banged on.

My defence is partly on the fact that they mishandled my account in the first place by transfered me against my specific intructions.
They gave me misleading and incorrect advice regarding my account - couldn't change me back, reduce my overdraft limit, availablility or lack of paying in books, paperwork not being passed on, contradiction of advice, non-action within a suitable time frame, paperwork not read through and acted upon.
There was excessive intransigence by the bank in their failure to accept responsibility for mistakes, frustrating the complaints procedure.

Will that do? I'm taking copies of the paperwork to the court tomorrow so the judge can read my submission before the hearing - I've been told that is the way it is done, but as a non legal person I don't know the correct way around.

Sorry it's such a long post but I copy/pasted it which is pretty good for a first attempt for me and didn't want to risk loosing it all by tweeking.

**Amethyst** · 20th May 2010, 06:44:AM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Just copying my post from eariler on your MSE thread over here. Really would like to see what you are intending on entering to the court so we can guide you if needed. Apologies if this covers something you have already answered.

esmerellda
Serious MoneySaving Fan

Join Date: Mar 2007
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Okay, I'm not on Facebook.

Can you post up what you entered for your defence here pls - leave out account number/etc.

This claim is not personal in any way, it is simply Natwest/Cobbetts and especially Shoosmiths being absolutely rubbish at communicating between themselves and customers and doing their step by step clam procedure they do with everyone regardless of the circumstances.

Okay so.

The claim is for £7k.

You are offering a repayment proposal to them of an affordable amount backed up by your income expenditure sheet on the £5900 which you agree you actually owe.

On your witness statement/admission/defence (after have seen what you have done so far will be better able to advise next step) you will spell out what has happened, detail the previous offers and communication which they have ignored and include copies as evidence with that. The court will order repayment at that figure and should not allow a charging order unless you default on the offered payments.

Have you commenced payments for the amount offered via CAB etc ? or have you been waiting for confirmation it was accepted ? I would recommend starting those payments up when you can regardless to be honest then it helps show the court you are serious.

If you can post up the defence you have entered that would be a great start.

Just to be on the safe side, and to prove I have tried to get things moving I went into the local Nat West branch and paid in all the cash I had been putting to one side waiting for the payment book, as they had originally refused to accept it without one.
They still didn't give me one despite several requests, which is why they want to make the claim against me for non payment, when all along I had wanted to pay, but they wouldn't give me the means.

okay that answers that bit

**Natwestvictim** · 20th May 2010, 09:33:AM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Defence includes that the bank tranfered me into an unsiutable account knowing I had rejected the transfer before it took place, which incurred costs. They refused to transfer me back for some which incurred more costs. Mishandled my account due to incompetence and misleading advice. Mislead me regarding paying in books.
Lost documentation several times which caused unneccessary delays which incurred more costs.
Did not liaise between departments and outside agencies despite reassurances that they would do, which caused more delays and costs.
Took 17 months to send copy documents of bank statements for me to examine.
They gave cortadictory advice which resulted in me waiting for responses that did not arrive.
There was excessive intransigence by their bank in their failure to accept responsibility for mistakes, which frustrated the complaints procedure.
My original request for a payment book is an issue as it arises because I believed that the agreement was in place through discussions with the banks, and it would have been reasonable for me to have done so.
The knock on effect of the false advice and their loss of several copies of the different sets of paperwork was for a snowballing effect of the alledged debt as charges and interest were being added at a rate higher than the offer to pay figure.
This excerbated the problem as the bank did not put a stop on the account, which they should, or could, have done once they were made aware of the situation.

I also submit that the bank should have handled the whole situation with more attention once they were made aware that they had encouraged someone in my condition (mentally and emotionally unstable and on benefits) to get into increased debt - raising overdraft without consultation or correct review of account and ability to repay, refusing to reduce said level of overdraft, giving two consolidation loans when the ability to repay was obviously in question, as was the clients mental and emotional state to make sensible and informed decisions was also debatable.

I've given a breakdown of the figures as listed above to show how the balance is calculated.

I've also considered putting in something about having the charge on my house rejected as the bank had not followed procedure and were preventing me from settling this dispute earlier. This was either deliberately to gain financial benefit (interest and charges) or by incompetence (not responding to contacts or loosing documents).

I repeated that I had always been prepared to pay a faitr amount, as I proved by handing over the £350 recently when I was told that payment books were no longer available, despite being told one was being ordered that day when I went into the branch.

Hope that gives you enough fodder for the cannon.

Once I've taken the submission in can I still add to it if I remember anything else?
Does the Judge give you a bit of leeway while you are there if you are a non-legal person and likely to be a bag of nerves, or do you have to be able to quote chapter and verse off the top of your head?
I'm soooo scared - and I've still told my husband nothing. Terrified about the outcome as I know I'll be out on my backside if it all goes wrong. Not so much about the money - although that's a huge issue, but the fact I've kept it from him for over 3 years.

**Natwestvictim** · 21st May 2010, 22:04:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Just had a letter today from Cobbetts telling me they were going to be claiming another £600 plus, and any other additional charges in costs, if I go to court and try to get the charge on the house rejected or the case thrown out.
Talk about bully boys - if i can't afford to repay what they are claiming I owe, how am I going to be able to pay it plus another £600+

**Natwestvictim** · 24th May 2010, 16:34:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

Wish me Luck! I am in Court tomorrow facing the Bank's solicitor with my tatty A4 folder and cobbled together defence and counter arguements. Talk about David and Goliath, but I doubt the outcome will be as heroic.
I will let you know how things turn out - if I'm not locked up or taken away in a fetching white jacket with extra long sleeves.

**enaid** · 24th May 2010, 16:52:PM

Re: A Newby says Hello

All the very best for tomorrow, whatever the outcome, you have tried your best no one can do more than that.
I will say that most people who have attended court have not found it to be half as bad as they expected even if they didn't get the result they wanted.
Once again good luck Enaid x

A Newby says Hello

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