Speeding Case

[Erica sure]

Happy New Year,
I will be attending court in January 2025 for a speeding fine, despite accepting the fine originally. Paying the fine. It was reverted back because I did not send over my driving licence for the points to be added.
Any advice would be appreciated.

[Manxman]

Presumably you've received and returned a SJPN?

How did you plead?

Assuming you plead guilty, if the form had a mitigation section you could have asked the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level as you hadn't realised that you needed to supply your licence details again. If you didn't ask on the plea form you can ask the court in person on the day.

NB - AIUI you are no longer required to send your licence in when accepting a conditional offer of a fixed penalty (it's not a fine by the way). What you have to do is supply your licence details. Many people fail to do this because they have already done it when identfying themself on the NIP/s172 notice and don't read the conditions of the offer properly. You can tell the court you were confused because you thought you'd already supplied the required info when identifying yourself as the driver.

[Erica sure]

Hi,
I pleaded not guilty and then they sent over the paperwork to attend court. My argument was how do they know the speeding instrument they used was in good working order.
I did not receive a SJPN. That may have been the first form.
I also received another letter stating that they wanted to adjourn the case because the PC cannot attend, and replied no, I have already booked the day off.
I did not send over my DL as I was under the impression that they would have it on the system.

[islandgirl]

Re: "I pleaded not guilty and then they sent over the paperwork to attend court. My argument was how do they know the speeding instrument they used was in good working order." When we see these matters in court the Police always provide evidence of calibration etc as part of their pack. You are unlikely to win on that basis in my opinion.

[Manxman]

Erica sure - as I've already explained, one of the conditions that will have been attached to the Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (not a "fine") that you will have received is that you must supply your driving licence details when you accept the offer.

I suspect that you - like many other people - failed to read properly the conditions attached to the offer. Simply paying is not sufficient to accept the offer, you must also supply your licence details even though you will already have supplied them when you responded to the s172 request to name the driver. (I don't think you need to physically send your licence in any more as the points endorsement is done electronically from the information you supply)

Like islandgirl I'm not sure that your basis for pleading Not Guilty will succeed. As I understand it the courts work from the legal presumption that speed cameras etc are functioning correctly unless proven otherwise. This means that if you want to plead Not Guilty on the basis you suggest, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that the equipment was not working properly. How do you propose to do this? Even if the police do not provide a calibration certificate in their evidence, I think you will have an uphill battle to beat the charge.

And if the police decide they need to call expert evidence to prove that the equipment was working properly, that is likely to increase significantly the costs you will have to pay if you lose.

I'm not sure why you want to plead Not Guilty when you'd already decided to accept the Conditional Offer? As I've already said you could plead Guilty and respectfully ask the court to fine you at the same level as the Conditional Offer. Simply explain that you tried to accept the Conditional Offer in good faith, but was confused by the requirement to supply your driving licence details again as you had already supplied those details when identifying yourself as the driver. Point out that you weren't trying to evade the penalty points, but that you simply made an admin error when trying to accept the offer.

There's no guarantee that that would work, but if you don't ask...

The only ray of light I see is if the court decides that the presence of the police witness is necessary to prove their case, and he either doesn't attend or the court doesn't adjourn until he can attend. In that case you might win.

It's up to you how you approach this - continue Not guilty or explore other avenues. I'm not a lawyer and the above is just my opinion and not legal advice.

Let us know how it turns out.

[islandgirl]

But the Police will provide the evidence re the equipment as part of the prosecution case so no need for experts etc

[Manxman]

error

[Manxman]

But the Police will provide the evidence re the equipment as part of the prosecution case so no need for experts etc

No doubt - but there were cases documented on the old pepipoo forum before it disappeared where defendants had persisted in challenging police evidence regarding speed cameras and speed guns etc and the defendants had been lumbered with costs awards ranging into several thousand pounds after the prosecution had to use expert evidence.

This example reported on BBC is an extreme one in that the defendant went to the Court of Appeal, but he didn't believe the speed camera evidence when he should just have accepted the charge - Man spends £30,000 fighting £100 speeding fine - BBC News

[Manxman]

Erica sure

... As I've already said you could plead Guilty and respectfully ask the court to fine you at the same level as the Conditional Offer. Simply explain that you tried to accept the Conditional Offer in good faith, but was confused by the requirement to supply your driving licence details again as you had already supplied those details when identifying yourself as the driver. Point out that you weren't trying to evade the penalty points, but that you simply made an admin error when trying to accept the offer.

There's no guarantee that that would work, but if you don't ask...

If Erica sure is still following thread, I think(?) the relevant guidance is in the magistrates' sentencing guidelines here: 5. Penalty notices – fixed penalty notices and penalty notices for disorder – Sentencing

"... where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

[islandgirl]

No doubt - but there were cases documented on the old pepipoo forum before it disappeared where defendants had persisted in challenging police evidence regarding speed cameras and speed guns etc and the defendants had been lumbered with costs awards ranging into several thousand pounds after the prosecution had to use expert evidence.

This example reported on BBC is an extreme one in that the defendant went to the Court of Appeal, but he didn't believe the speed camera evidence when he should just have accepted the charge - Man spends £30,000 fighting £100 speeding fine - BBC News

Exactly - so it would be pointless to challenge the speeding charge by saying the equipment was faulty as I said...There is always a statement from the Police about correct callibration etc which is carried our regularly.