2 x old charging option CCJ - Nationwide BS & LloysTSB Bank plc - issue with sale.

[leicesterman]

Just wondering if anybody can help or at least point me in the direction of somebody who might be able to help. I will try and keep it brief with the key points that I can expand on if required.
In 2008/09 I went through a very bad financial situation due to redundancy as a result of the financial crisis in which I was a mortgage broker (think back to the financial crash of 2008). To be honest I had been struggling to keep on top of stuff before the crash but after losing my job and being unemployed for 4 months I had to prioritise the mortgage payments and not the other credit cards and loans which had to be put to one side. I also was not in a great place mentally dealing with this debt and other personal issues at the time and didn’t know what to do (wish I had known about this group at the time)
The end result of this was that I ended up with a number of CCJs and defaults all of which have obviously ‘disappeared’ now (not sure what the technical term is) over the last 14/15 years.

However, two of the CCJs – the lenders Nationwide BS & LloydTSB managed to secure charging options against the property I owned.
These charging options appear on the Land Registry as;

(14.10.2009) Equitable charge created by an interim order of the Bradford County Court dated 29 September 2009 in favour of Nationwide Building Society. NOTE: Copy filed.
(05.10.2010) Equitable charge created by an Interim charging order of the Norwich County Court dated 20 September 2010 in favour of Lloyds TSB Bank Plc. NOTE: Copy filed.

Now, during the next 14 years never Nationwide BS nor LloydsTSB Bank made any attempt to try and force the sale of the property or ask for payment. I received no annual statement or paperwork (perhaps LLoysTSB which I will come to later) and it seems that they were content to let ‘sleeping dogs lie’ so to speak content with what they had secured.

So during the period between 2010 & 2024 I have been able to rebuild things and in 2018 I moved out the property and brought another house. I have rented the property out to the same tenant since 2018 and, following the increase in mortgage rates and general climate, I have agreed to sell the property to them. (As a side note please don’t consider me to be a bad landlord trying to avoid paying debt, I only agreed to rent it out to them as we had the opportunity to buy a property in the same village as my daughters school but we had to move very quickly, this is more circumstantial and I don’t have a big portfolio of properties – this is the only one etc)

Between 2010 & 2024 the mortgage has been with the same lender (Leeds BS) and we have always renewed the mortgage product each time (never had to remortgage etc) so the issue of these charging options has never come up until now.

So, we are now in process of selling the property as these two charging options have now been uncovered and my Solicitor is saying we can’t proceed unless they are repaid.
The first charge is with Nationwide BS.

After a bit of messing around I managed to speak to Nationwide today and they confirmed that they amount outstanding is £2,615.48 – I asked if they would negotiate on that amount but they said they wouldn’t as they held a charge on the property albeit they said they would never force the sale. They were content to leave it with me if I wanted to pay or not to allow the sale of the property but at least I have a contact point to deal with now.

The second charge is with LloydsTSB Bank PLC and is more complex as I am not sure of the amount as I had four accounts with them.
The figures are approximate based on the paperwork I have been able to find (sorry there was 6 huge boxes of debt letters in the loft of the rental property that I have had to wade through but pretty sure this is is)

Credit Card - £2,511.71
Personal Loan - £4,852.91
Current Account Overdraft - £1,941.70
Other Current Account Overdraft - £300

Now, this issue is that I don’t know which one of these debts the CCJ was given against and who is now the owner of the debt – it will not be all of them but just one. I suspect it is the personal loan but can't be sure.

Obviously, and this could be key, during the last 14 years LloydsTSB now longer exists having split into two separate banks again.

I have today tried to contact Norwich County Court to see if they have the original paperwork on file from 2010 but the central helpline I spoke to said they would not keep records for more than 6 years.

So based on this how do I proceed?

The following questions I would raise are

1. Is there anyway to get Nationwide BS to negotiate on the amount – I suspect not and it is more a policy thing that they don’t but could somebody confirm this?

1. How do I go about finding out who is the holder of the debt that was owned by LloydsTSB? I do (probably every 12 -24 months) seem to get a letter at a different address from Link Financial claiming some debt but I have pretty much binned those I always thought after 6 years there was nothing they could do.

1. How do I find out which of the debts from LloydsTSB went to the CCJ. It goes without saying that obviously I don’t want to be repaying the wrong one!

1. If we can’t find the legal owner of the debt how can I sell the property without repaying it (if possible). Also, and I have seen this on the forum somewhere, is there an issue with LloydsTSB not informing the Land Registry when the debt was sold – it is still down there under ‘LloydsTSB’ – could this be challenged via court?

1. Finally, keep in mind that ideally I would like to get the property sold by the end of October (due to the probability that Capital Gains Tax will rise in first budget) so I have to balance out arguing over a few £1000 against how much that would cost.

I hope that has covered all the points but anything else I will try!

[atticus]

Look at posts 12 and 13 in this thread https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...statute-barred

That should give you a way forward.

[leicesterman]

Thanks for this - so if I am clear the licenced conveyancer should be able to get around this by using Form K restriction?

Would this mean all we had to do was send a letter to a) Nationwide or b) the last address on file for LloysdsTSB and then it would be up to them to pursue the debt but as it was over 6 years old in reality it would be statue barred?

[atticus]

Please look at the wording of the restrictions on your Land Registry title document. The references to equitable charges suggest Form K restrictions. If so, letters would need to be sent to both creditors named in the restrictions.

[leicesterman]

Thanks very much - anything else I should raise with my Solicitor other than this?

[atticus]

I have just written this, which you may wish to share with your solicitor: https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...-k-restriction

[leicesterman]

Thanks for this - unfortunately the property is just in my name, I am the sole owner so I am presuming this will not apply.

It was in joint names in 2006 when we brought it, but we had to do a transfer of equity in 2007 to remove my partner from the mortgage so we could borrow some more due to debt issues in my name. So from late 2007 the property has just been owned by myself.

I mean we could add my partner back on to the property if that would help but I just think this would complicate matters.

Any advice on that?

(Sorry, I used the term 'we' to much in the original post, I should have been clearer)

[atticus]

Look at the wording of the restrictions. By all means post the full wording here.

[leicesterman]

Hi,

This is everything on the Land Registry information I have been sent with my details removed.....



A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title.
LEICESTER
1
2
3
(15.05.2006) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above title filed at the Registry and being 2020101 Tewkesbury Street,
Leicester (LE3 5HQ).
(15.05.2006) The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is
subject to the rights reserved by the Conveyance dated 27 May 1935
referred to in the Charges Register.
(15.05.2006) The Conveyance dated 27 May 1935 referred to above
contains provisions as to light or air and boundary structures.
B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It contains
any entries that affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1
2
3
(30.10.2007) PROPRIETOR: MR DADDY PEPPA PIG of 2020201 Tewkesbury
Street, Leicester LE3 5HQ.
(15.05.2006) The price stated to have been paid on 31 March 2006 was
£95,500.
(15.05.2006) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate by
the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a
written consent signed by the proprietor for the time being of the
Charge dated 31 March 2006 in favour of Leeds Building Society referred
to in the Charges Register.
C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.
1
(15.05.2006) A Conveyance of the land in this title and other land
dated 24 June 1895 made between (1) Frances Edith Nugent Paget, John
Paget Mellor and Henry Beazley and (2) Manchester Sheffield And
1 of 2
Title number LT386435
C: Charges Register continued
Lincolnshire Railway Company contains covenants but neither the
original deed nor a certified copy or examined abstract thereof was
produced on first registration.
2
3
4
5
6
(15.05.2006) A Conveyance of the land in this title and other land
dated 27 May 1935 made between (1) The Bradford Property Trust Limited
and (2) George William Manton contains restrictive covenants.
NOTE: Copy filed.
(15.05.2006) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 31 March 2006.
(15.05.2006) Proprietor: LEEDS BUILDING SOCIETY of 26 Sovereign Street,
Leeds LS1 4BJ.
(14.10.2009) Equitable charge created by an interim order of the
Bradford County Court dated 29 September 2009 in favour of Nationwide
Building Society.
NOTE: Copy filed.
(05.10.2010) Equitable charge created by an Interim charging order of
the Norwich County Court dated 20 September 2010 in favour of Lloyds
TSB Bank Plc.
NOTE: Copy filed.
End of register

[leicesterman]

So, after putting together a very extensive email (several pages long) explaining everything to my conveyancer (including links to this thread and other information) this was the response that I had back.......

Good Morning X


Any charge registered on the title needs to be removed on completion of the transaction as an undertaking to do this is required from us that this will occur.

A buyers solicitor will not proceed without this being discharged.

All I require is the reference numbers for the charges so that I can contact them to get the required discharge authorities.

We will contact the parties as we will be required to pay these and get these removed.


I am not really happy with the response but I am not sure what other options I have.......

[leicesterman]

atticus I am not sure if you could advise on this or at least point me in the direction of another Solicitor who might specialise in this?

[ULA]

Cut and pasted by Ula from a new thread OP created with a new question on the same issue OP aware. Other thread deleted.



There has been something of an update since but in short the Conveyancer dealing with the sale of the property on my behalf will not proceed with anything unless both the two charging options against my property are paid in full on completion - this is despite pointing out the information that was provided by someone on this group. We have the details from the first charge from Nationwide BS which, if I do have to pay, at least I have the correct contact point to pay. The LloydsTSB is now more complex.....

There is a limited time now to get the property sold and so I am looking for some specific information relating to paying a debt to Link Financial in order to try and get this resolved if - as appears likely - I have no option but to pay this.

So......there is a charging option on my property of approx £4900 from a LloydsTSB loan in 2009 with the CCJ being secured against the property in 2010. LloydsTSB obviously no longer exists and it appears that the debt was sold/assigned to Link Financial (possibly Asset Link Capital (No5) Limited) in 2016 based on some old paperwork I have been able to find.

1) If the charging option was registered by LloydsTSB and they no longer exist who would be able to remove this to allow the house sale to proceed?

2) Should LloydsTSB or Link Financial have updated the Land Registry when the debt was sold/assigned? Does this impact matters?

3) Should I contact Link Financial to see if they are in a position (subject to the debt being repaid) to be able to allow the charge against the property to be removed?

4) I have a feeling that the Conveyancer dealing with this matter on my behalf might be slightly out their depth and are looking to 'protect' themselves by insisting that this is repaid as they haven't given me any justification or reasons against the detailed advice I provided from this forum (this would be the easy option for them and not leave them open to issues further down the line). If this is a specialist area regarding charging options could anybody suggest another Solicitor who I could instruct regarding this specific point (I would happily pay for this advice).

Any advice received would be appreciated.....

[ULA]

tag atticus on the above post as you have helped on this thread and I know the OP has found your advice helpful

[atticus]

Sorry, I have been away. I don't have any useful suggestions, sorry.

[leicesterman]

tag atticus on the above post as you have helped on this thread and I know the OP has found your advice helpful

No problem atticus there has been a bit of an update since which I will summarise.....

1) My Solicitor/Conveyancer isn't interested in trying to find a way around the debts - basically its come down to "if you want to use our services you need to pay the debt in full, no ifs no buts, its an equitable charge and there is nothing you can do about it now other than pay it.

2) Link Financial have confirmed they are the legal owner of the debt (£4,900) and have the ability to remove the charge via the Land Registry. This is even though the debt was via LloydsTSB and the Land Registry was never updated (my Solicitor/Conveyancer says this point is irrelevant, Link still have the debt)

3) I tried to negotiate with Link Financial last week - they wanted £4900 I offered £500 they then came back and said no £3900 (with an email supposedly sent to the wrong email address confirming this) - I said are you willing to discuss anymore and they said how will you get the funds and I said 'savings' before the property is sold or re-mortgaged.....they then said "oh if you are selling or remortgaging the property we don't offer reductions and withdrew the £3900 offer" - I then had the argument with them along the lines off "I am sorry but I told you 24 hours before I wanted the charge removed and you said fine and agreed to look at full and final settlement. Once you have removed the charge I don't see what it has to do with you if I re-mortgage or sell the property" the woman refused to listen so I ended the call.

4) Based on above I have done a subject access request to Link Financial as I think this is clearly not treating people fairly but what good it will do I have no idea to see if I can get a copy of the email that offered £3900

So based on this I am thinking I don't have much option but to pay both these charges in full unless somebody can point me in the direction of a Solicitor who specialises in 'Equitable Charges' and can advise otherwise.