Car purchased via HP - marked as stolen 8 months prior

[YorkshireRose]

Hi,
My son purchased a Merc in September 2022.

The car has had mechanical issues since day 1 (and ongoing) , but unfortunately he didn't discuss this with me and has lost his right to reject.

He is trying to cut his losses and had looked into selling the car and clearing the outstanding HP, however he approached a dealer who advise him the car is showing as "stolen/recovered". He has run his own Autotrader check and as per the attached snippet, which shows the vehicle as stolen in the January, the car has an MOT recorded in the March.

The dealer he purchased the vehicle from claimed the car was HPI clear, I've asked my son to see if he can find the original HPI document.

I'm unsure how he can clarify whether stolen or stolen/recovered ? Does he need to contact the Met police who are detailed on the Autoreader report?

In either scenario, my son bought a car that wasn't as described - what options does he have re terminating the HP, recovering any monies he has paid etc

Thank you

[echat11]

No doubt others will advise / comment.

Could the number plate have been 'cloned'?

Send a SAR to the dealer, they have 30 days to provide all the data they hold. Make sure you get Proof of Postage.

Send a SAR to the finance company, theu have 30 days to provide all the data they hold. Make sure you get Proof of Postage.

Report the matter to the police. They'll provide you with a crime reference number.

Something doesn't add up.

[YorkshireRose]

The police have checked the car, and as the car must have been "stolen/recovered" have removed the "stolen" marker.

This doesn't change the fact that he wouldn't have ever knowingly bought a car that had been stolen. Plus he unwittingly paid a price assuming no negative vehicle history, and will be financially impacted when he comes to sell / PX in view of the "stolen/recovered" history

[R0b]

Unfortunately, if you have followed the advice of echat and contacted the police, I think your son may have acted prematurely and now scuppered his chances of terminating the HP agreement.

If I were your son and I wanted to terminate the HP agreement, I would have written a letter to the finance company first and explained you are terminating the agreement on the basis that your son has become aware the car has a stolen marker against it and therefore the HP agreement is void.

Now the stolen marker has been removed, I would imagine the finance company will now argue that there is nothing stopping your son from complying with the terms of the agreement. I'm not convinced by your reliance on the car not being described as a means to get out of the agreement, because the description is about the goods itself. Although if the description of the advert indicated the car passed a HPI check or some other similar vehicle check and is free from any restrictions but the dealer could prove their innocence by producing a recent valid HPI check prior to selling the car.

A word of warning, your son is not allowed to sell the car without the permission of the finance company and in doing so he will be in breach of his agreement. Still, I wouldn't know why he would do that if you think there are valid grounds to argue the car was not as described. Even if he were to sell the car, I'm not sure how he would be impacted financially if the stolen marker has been removed by the police?

The other point to be mindful of is that since your son discovered it was a previously marked as stolen, that could invalidate his insurance if he does not inform them. I take no view on whether your son should do this or not.

As I see it your son could write to the finance company and inform them that your son recently discovered that there was stolen marker against the vehicle and that there is outstanding finance on the vehicle under Oodle Financial Services Limited, attaching a copy of the check.

Section 17(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that the trader must have the right to sell or transfer ownership and/or the right to transfer possession of the vehicle for hire during the period agreed under the hire purchase agreement. Section 17(3) goes on to say that it was an implied term of the HP agreement that your son would have quiet enjoyment and possession of the vehicle unless your son was made aware of any encumbrances prior to entering into the contract. Given that your son was not made aware that the vehicle was stolen/owned by someone else, the finance company was in breach of contract. In any event, (a) the dealer had no lawful right to sell the goods to the finance company and (b) the finance company had no lawful right to become owner of the vehicle and hire the vehicle out to you.

You could, if your son wished to mention, the legal principle of this rule, which is a latin phrase nemo dat quod non habet though it is often referred to as the 'nemo dat' rule. It translates to no person other than the true owner of the goods can give title/ownership of the goods without the permission of that true owner.

The letter/email should be rounded off by saying your son expects the HP agreement to be terminated and all payments made under the agreement to be refunded. Your son may also want to sya the letter should be treated as a formal complaint which the finance company has 8 weeks to provide a final response before he goes to the Financial Ombudsman.

[YorkshireRose]

Thanks for all the valuable advice Rob,

I wasn't aware my son had reached out to the police - but we are where we are.

To clarify the outstanding Oodle finance is my son's, so that's not an issue.

My son is having habitual and ongoing mechanical issues with the car, which require diagnostics/repairs via the main dealer (as per the terms of his GAP insurance). I had misunderstood the calculation of the 50% point at which I believe there is the option to handback the car and he approached Oodle. On learning he couldn't terminate without a further 6 months worth of payments he asked what other options there was to change the car.

I don't know what options he was offered but he separately approached a dealer to get an independent verdict as to the PX value. At this point he was made aware of the "stolen/recovered" marker as the dealer offered a much reduced PX figure because of this. Hence my comment re him being financially impacted when he comes to sell .

I will suggest to him a letter as you suggest (without the outstanding finance part) and see how they respond

[echat11]

In your first post you've stated the following 'Does he need to contact the Met police who are detailed on the Autoreader report?'

Then you've stated 'I wasn't aware my son had reached out to the police - but we are where we are'

So were the policed contacted or not?

[DE DOGS]

My observation is this. The car was stolen, then recovered, then passed back to the rightful owner, hence STOLEN/RECOVERED, and so it is a legitimate sale, agree the dealer should have advised this at the point of sale, but my opinion is who told who at the time ?.

[YorkshireRose]

In your first post you've stated the following 'Does he need to contact the Met police who are detailed on the Autoreader report?'

Then you've stated 'I wasn't aware my son had reached out to the police - but we are where we are'

So were the policed contacted or not?

It transpires that after asking for my help my son contacted the local police force in relation to the "stolen" marker. I was unaware at the point of writing the post

[YorkshireRose]

Hi DE Dogs.
My son can be pretty stupid, but even he wouldn't have bought the car were he told it had previously been stolen.
But I accept were it to go to Court it could be a case of "he said she said"

[YorkshireRose]

May I ask, just for my own information, does anyone know if stolen markers flag on HPI reports?

[echat11]

Surely the dealer should have carried out some checks to see the history of the car.
What if this is 'commonly' overlooked?

[echat11]

May I ask, just for my own information, does anyone know if stolen markers flag on HPI reports?

Posted for information only - https://www.cinch.co.uk/jargon/hpi-check

[YorkshireRose]

Hi Rob,

To clarify the outstanding Oodle finance is my son's HP on the vehicle.

As the issue is the "stolen" marker on the vehicle can you clarify which sections of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 below are still relevant. I don't want to undermine the complaint by quoting incorrectly from the legislations

************************************************** **************

Unfortunately, if you have followed the advice of echat and contacted the police, I think your son may have acted prematurely and now scuppered his chances of terminating the HP agreement.

If I were your son and I wanted to terminate the HP agreement, I would have written a letter to the finance company first and explained you are terminating the agreement on the basis that your son has become aware the car has a stolen marker against it and therefore the HP agreement is void.

Now the stolen marker has been removed, I would imagine the finance company will now argue that there is nothing stopping your son from complying with the terms of the agreement. I'm not convinced by your reliance on the car not being described as a means to get out of the agreement, because the description is about the goods itself. Although if the description of the advert indicated the car passed a HPI check or some other similar vehicle check and is free from any restrictions but the dealer could prove their innocence by producing a recent valid HPI check prior to selling the car.

A word of warning, your son is not allowed to sell the car without the permission of the finance company and in doing so he will be in breach of his agreement. Still, I wouldn't know why he would do that if you think there are valid grounds to argue the car was not as described. Even if he were to sell the car, I'm not sure how he would be impacted financially if the stolen marker has been removed by the police?

The other point to be mindful of is that since your son discovered it was a previously marked as stolen, that could invalidate his insurance if he does not inform them. I take no view on whether your son should do this or not.

As I see it your son could write to the finance company and inform them that your son recently discovered that there was stolen marker against the vehicle and that there is outstanding finance on the vehicle under Oodle Financial Services Limited, attaching a copy of the check.

Section 17(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that the trader must have the right to sell or transfer ownership and/or the right to transfer possession of the vehicle for hire during the period agreed under the hire purchase agreement. Section 17(3) goes on to say that it was an implied term of the HP agreement that your son would have quiet enjoyment and possession of the vehicle unless your son was made aware of any encumbrances prior to entering into the contract. Given that your son was not made aware that the vehicle was stolen/owned by someone else, the finance company was in breach of contract. In any event, (a) the dealer had no lawful right to sell the goods to the finance company and (b) the finance company had no lawful right to become owner of the vehicle and hire the vehicle out to you.

You could, if your son wished to mention, the legal principle of this rule, which is a latin phrase nemo dat quod non habet though it is often referred to as the 'nemo dat' rule. It translates to no person other than the true owner of the goods can give title/ownership of the goods without the permission of that true owner.

The letter/email should be rounded off by saying your son expects the HP agreement to be terminated and all payments made under the agreement to be refunded. Your son may also want to sya the letter should be treated as a formal complaint which the finance company has 8 weeks to provide a final response before he goes to the Financial Ombudsman.

[YorkshireRose]

Hi,
Apparently, the dealer advertised the car as being HPI checked.

I've asked my son to check his paperwork to see how this was communicated to him by the dealer - if an HPI check would have shown a stolen marker, then something doesn't add up!

*************************************

Surely the dealer should have carried out some checks to see the history of the car.
What if this is 'commonly' overlooked?

[echat11]

Hi,
Apparently, the dealer advertised the car as being HPI checked.

I've asked my son to check his paperwork to see how this was communicated to him by the dealer - if an HPI check would have shown a stolen marker, then something doesn't add up!

*************************************

It might be an idea to get your son to make the following requests.

Send a SAR to the dealer, they have 30 days to provide all the data they hold. Make sure you get Proof of Postage.

Send a SAR to the finance company, theu have 30 days to provide all the data they hold. Make sure you get Proof of Postage.