Voluntary Termination of Vehicle with fitted camera

[Guest]

Ok, understood.

I was just letting you know what BH said to me. But the car is on the drive and will not be used.

[Guest]

You really need to stick to one storyline.

Either you VT'd last year and deem the contract terminated or you accept the VT did not take place last year, you failed to make the instalments as required and all those negative entries on your credit file are true. If you choose to sell the car at the settlement price, you are giving the impression that you are liable for the remaining balance of the contract.

If your position is that you VT'd last year, forget what BH are saying you can or cannot do as it is not your job to do their job. I cannot make it any clearer than what I already have - do not do anything that is inconsistent with your right to VT together with your capped liability as the more you stray away, the more ammunition it gives BH and a court to think you have waived or withdrew your right to terminate and instead chose to carry on with the contract.

If you are arguing the contract is already terminated, you should not be using the car without their permission because it is inconsistent with your VT rights.

If you choose to deviate or cave into pressure, you only have yourself to blame if something goes wrong or not the way you expected.

Hi

Sorry its been a while.

I've had a lady called Emma on the phone today from Black Horse trying to tell me that I can't VT the car as I am not at the halfway mark (I am £152.00 shy of the halfway mark). Also she is claiming that I can not VT the car as there are arrears on the account and that if I don't pay the arrears which is now over £10,000 they will take me to court to repossess the car.

Obviously I know all of this is a pile of rubbish. I asked her how can they repossess a car that has been VT'd, they have received verbal and written notices from me since 2021 but refuse to collect the car until I sign their paperwork agreeing to pay arrears on the account.

I am going to drive the car back to them, I feel that way they will stop the nonsense if the car is back in their possession as they are only claiming that can not get the car themselves if I don't sign their paperwork.

I also checked my credit file, they have it logged that I have missed almost all of the payments on the account since the day I purchase back in 2018, I'm not sure what's gone on there but that is not correct at all. Emma advised me verbally during the call that I have missed 13 payments (3 of which were holiday payments, the other 10 from since I VT'd as I had been out of work and they have refused to get the car unless I sign their paperwork which I have refused to do).

Should I decide to drive the car back to them, how will I document this in the log book?

[Guest]

You really need to stick to one storyline.

Either you VT'd last year and deem the contract terminated or you accept the VT did not take place last year, you failed to make the instalments as required and all those negative entries on your credit file are true. If you choose to sell the car at the settlement price, you are giving the impression that you are liable for the remaining balance of the contract.

If your position is that you VT'd last year, forget what BH are saying you can or cannot do as it is not your job to do their job. I cannot make it any clearer than what I already have - do not do anything that is inconsistent with your right to VT together with your capped liability as the more you stray away, the more ammunition it gives BH and a court to think you have waived or withdrew your right to terminate and instead chose to carry on with the contract.

If you are arguing the contract is already terminated, you should not be using the car without their permission because it is inconsistent with your VT rights.

If you choose to deviate or cave into pressure, you only have yourself to blame if something goes wrong or not the way you expected.

Hi rob

I have received further correspondence from BH
The car was returned to them on Friday 9th September, yet they wrote to me on Friday 9th September claiming again that the arrears now over £10,000 were outstanding and that court proceedings would be issued against me if I did not pay the outstanding arrears. Reasons being, I do not have the space to store the vehicle, nor the funds to continue paying for tax and insurance as I am unemployed.

I have not responded as the car has been VT'd and they have refused to acknowledge the fact.

As the car is no longer in my possession and I have notified the DVLA of the new keeper what should happen now?

I do not believe that BH customer service team have notified the correct people within the business that the vehicle was VT'd as you earlier pointed out.

[R0b]

Where did you return the vehicle to? Did it go to their head office address listed on the agreement or somewhere else? Depending on where you left it, for example at the dealership, then you may be responsible for what happens to the vehicle. If it is damaged, stolen or something else then you have ultimate liability for what happens to it. The T&Cs should dictate where the car should be returned and if you didn't follow that then you will be in breach of contract and have to pay for that.

Is the correspondence a letter before action or simply a debt letter and does it say they will take legal action or that is something they will contemplate? Might be useful to upload the letter with your personal info redacted so we can see what it says.

At this stage, it would be unwise for you to ignore any further correspondence but it's your dispute so entirely up to you how you want to approach it. I feel given what BH have done, there are good grounds for claiming compensation either by issuing a claim yourself or waiting to see if they issue a claim for the debt and then counterclaim in the same proceedings - or you could do absolutely nothing and have your credit file savaged for the next 6 years. You may have a hard time the longer you take no action but then decide to do it at a later date as you will be questioned why you have waited so long to do anything.

[Guest]

Hi

The car was returned to their Head Office in Cardiff and the keys were handed in to their reception staff along with the V5 change of ownership slip and a letter explaining why the vehicle was returned. Basically, letting them know that as I have already VT'd the car and they have refused to collect I have made the decision to deliver the vehicle back to them.

Screenshots of the letter received yesterday are attached. The letter is addressed from a solicitor withing Lloyds banking. I'm not sure why no one is acknowledging that I've already VT'd the car. Very bizarre.

[R0b]

That looks like a letter before action to me so if there is no resolution or unless BH suddenly stop going any further, it looks like the next steps are going to be legal proceedings. You've got several options available to you, either continue maintaining that the agreement has been terminated or, you can go in hard and not only set out your defence position but also put them on notice that if they pursue this line of action, you will counterclaim for breach of data protection laws and also there may be grounds for harassment on the basis they have no lawful basis for even suggesting you owe the arrears as alleged.

I appreciate you may be unemployed at the moment but that shouldn't stop you from telling them you are thinking of countersuing as it may stop them in their tracks and actually pause for a moment. Normally a counterclaim has a fee attached but being unemployed you might be eligible for a fee remission (go to this link: Get help paying court and tribunal fees). You can do that process online and if you are eligible then you will be given a unique reference number which you give to the court to be exempt from fees payable. However, the choice is ultimately yours as to what you want to do.

Next steps is to start preparing a response to that letter, you will have 30 days from the date of the letter to reply. In the meantime, I would suggest you start evidence gathering:

1. Get a copy of your credit file from all 3 reference agencies and see what negative entries they have applied as I know you said they have since reported negative entries from the start.

2. Obtain any evidence of payments made, such as bank statements or you would have been sent annual statements from BH in relation to those payments you have made on time as they are obligated to send this to you. That will also show what payments have been made.

3. Any emails suggesting you are in arrears of payments and also emails or other correspondence confirming you no longer owe any payments.

4 As a fall back and catch all, suggest you submit a data subject access request for copies of all information they hold about you including an account summary, correspondence sent to you and any notes on your account in addition to anything else you want from them. There might be something in there that you can use to back up your position, particularly internal emails/notes.

I've got an example reply to a letter like this but need to dig it out, but the above should get you started whilst you work out what you want to do. The alternative option is if you really don't want to go to court at all, accept full liability and what they're asking for and come to an arrangement to pay because I can't see any other way forward at this time.

[Guest]

Thank you Rob.

I will 100% go to court if I have to. I have been in discussions with BH since lockdown started in 2020 advising them I was in financial difficulties with the car payments as well as with all of the new IR35 regulations that came into play as I was self employed working under a Ltd Co and all they have done is made it difficult for me to return the car. They led me to believe that I could not return the car until I had hit that 50% mark and all that has done is led me into more financial difficulty. Even when I asked for a payment holiday during lockdown they agreed but charged me £100 for every month I in that payment holiday. They have only recently removed those charges. I'm assuming someone complained and they were advised they were not allowed to legally charge for a payment holiday.
Even the lady I spoke to last week tried to throw everything she could at me to make me believe that I had to sign their documents and pay the £10,000 arrears before they would collect the car, telling me I was not allowed to VT the car as there were arrears on the account.
Now, even though they are fully aware the car is back in their possession they are playing ignorant. They have been nothing but rude and condescending attempting to make me believe I had no legal rights and had to do what they told me to do. Had it not been for this forum I would have done everything they told me I had to do.

For the best part of 3 years I have been paying just shy of £800 per month for the car (not including running costs/ tax/ insurance). Which seemed like a good idea at the time seeing as I was contracting and being paid premium rate, but that all changed during lockdown. At no time have BH ever offered any assistance with the finance, always threatening, leading me to believe I had no alternative but to keep the car or face legal action and an adverse credit file. What they are doing now is just the icing on the cake, so yes, I am 100% prepared to go to court with this.

I will start getting the information outlined above together in the morning.

Thank you

[Guest]

Black Horse have gone very quiet... I'm a bit worried

[Guest]

Hi @Rob

Black Horse have been in contact, please see attached letter. It seems that they are still refusing to accept that I VT'd the vehicle and are now claiming that when I returned the vehicle to their Cardiff premises that I abandoned it. which is not true, I was merely returning their property to them.

I was called by the CS team last week and I advised them that I would no longer be taking calls from them, future correspondence is to be made via letter only as they are constantly contradicting themselves or claiming I said things which I didn't.

I feel my only option now is to take this to court. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[R0b]

Can't say I'm surprised by their response but as far as I'm concerned it's a load of tosh. Did you receive that letter of termination they mentioned in the letter, are you able to upload that so I can see what it says?

Your next step would be to submit a letter before action, addressed to their legal department and hope that it gets through to them. It may very well be the case they're gonna call your bluff and see if you issue a claim so be prepared for that. You would then need to draft some particulars of claim when you come to issuing to get the ball rolling, that is assuming they do not respond or they deny liability.

I would also take the opportunity to submit a data subject access request for all information held on your account including an account history and notes on the account.

[Guest]

Can't say I'm surprised by their response but as far as I'm concerned it's a load of tosh. Did you receive that letter of termination they mentioned in the letter, are you able to upload that so I can see what it says?

Your next step would be to submit a letter before action, addressed to their legal department and hope that it gets through to them. It may very well be the case they're gonna call your bluff and see if you issue a claim so be prepared for that. You would then need to draft some particulars of claim when you come to issuing to get the ball rolling, that is assuming they do not respond or they deny liability.

I would also take the opportunity to submit a data subject access request for all information held on your account including an account history and notes on the account.

Hi Rob

Thanks for your response, exactly as I thought.

I have attached 2 letters, one stating their intention to take me to court unless I return the vehicle, which absolutely rubbishes their statement that I 'abandoned' the vehicle. They wanted it back and were prepared to take me to court to get it back, but just didn't want to acknowledge the VT.

The other is the front page of the documentation they were asking me to sign to admit liability of their charges.

Thanks
Carmen Black Horse Letters x2 - redacted.pdf

[R0b]

None of those letters appear to be what the response is referring to. The paragraph I am talking about below, which suggests there has been a letter of termination and you have 10 days to pay up. I'm curious to see this letter because it may be that in doing so, they may have unlawfully terminated the agreement which could potentially be another argument as to no liability but that should be your fallback position rather than the starting point. I don't want to comment just yet until I see what it actually looks like.

You may want to reach out to them and ask for a copy of the letter if you don't have it.

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[dslippy]

You need to consider whether if you make a permanent change to the car, you lose the right to terminate the agreement. You cannot give back exactly what you got.

[R0b]

Do you have any authority to back that up? I could have missed it but I am pretty certain there is nothing within the CCA 1974 that says your voluntary termination rights are lost if you modify the car and don't return it in the same condition. Of course there may be charges associated with returning it to the previous condition, but that is not the same as losing the right. The CCA makes it clear that contracting out of these rights are forbidden so any contractual term in the agreement to that effect, would be void anyway and I am also pretty certain that I've never seen a HP agreement with a clause like that.

[Guest]

You need to consider whether if you make a permanent change to the car, you lose the right to terminate the agreement. You cannot give back exactly what you got.

No changes have been made to the car, The only addition was the front and rear camera which was impossible to remove. It was installed by the same dealership I purchased the car from, Other than that nothing was ever done to the car.