Adverse possession

[Mudlark]

Hi again folks,
To answer this Question, you will probably have to be familiar with the Thames Conservancy Act 1932 and also The Thames Navigation Act 2010

The question is, does a riparian owner on the non tidal Thames between Teddington lock and Staines lock need a licence/lease to moor his boat to his own land? The Environment Agency owns the riverbed between Teddington and Staines.

The boat already has a registration licence, BSS and insurance.

Thanking you for your anticipated help which would be very much appreciated.

Mudlark

[Mudlark]

Hi Folks,
I wonder of so eone can help me please?
I'm in adverse possession of a piece of land, the council has issued an enforcement notice requiring me to remove a net that I use as a Net that I use to stop people and animals entering my land.
Is the council interfering with my right to exclude all others and use the land for my exclusive use?
I suspect the council is trying to undo my adverse possession process so that the Environment Agency can then claim the land.
Please help.
Bhel regards
Medlar

[Mudlark]

Mudlark

[des8]

Enforcement notices are issued following a breach of planning regulations.
Have the council given the reason for the notice?

[Mudlark]

Hi Des8,
The EN requires us to remove fences, structure and buildings for the permanent mooring of a boat.
We have no buildings ,structures or fences.
We do have private property signs up all over out land and a large net acting as a gate.
the land is enclosed by natural bramble hedging that has been there for many decades.
Has the council the right to force me to remove the net and thereby allow the public into
the land that I'm in adverse possession of.
I'm have been excluding all others for over 3 yes.
The council does not own the land there is no known owner.
Best regards
Mudlark

[des8]

The net may be a fence, as a fence is only a barrier to enclose a parcel of land.

Now there are regulations regarding fences eg when fronting a highway they may only be 1 metre high, whereas between gardens they should not exceed 2 metres

Ask the council if you have breached any regulations, and if so which.
If not ask why the EN has been issued.

[islandgirl]

I believe enforcement is dealt with at planning committee level - go back through the minutes of the meetings at you local council. Trawl the website for any reference to the land. They fear change of use I assume - if you change something for 10 years they cannot make you change it back. Now the notice has been issued that clock has I believe stopped ticking.

[des8]

You might find this link useful: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ensuring...ve-enforcement

[Mudlark]

Hi Des8,
The EN requires us to remove fences, structure and buildings for the permanent mooring of a boat.
We have no buildings ,structures or fences.
We do have private property signs up all over out land and a large net acting as a gate.
the land is enclosed by natural bramble hedging that has been there for many decades.
Has the council the right to force me to remove the net and thereby allow the public into
the land that I'm in adverse possession of.
I'm have been excluding all others for over 3 yes.
The council does not own the land there is no known owner.
Best regards
Mudlark

[Mudlark]

Thank Des8,
The question I have is!!
Can the council force me to allow the public onto the land I'm in Adverse possession of.
no paper titles owner of this land has come forward.
Therefor I can not be removed from this land and in time I will become the title holder for this land.
The council is trying to make me allow the public onto my land so I lose my Adverse possession rights and the Environment Agency can then move into my land
What can I do to stop this, have I not got the right to exclude all others?
Best regards
Mudlark

[des8]

So have you asked the council which regulations you have breached causing them to issue an EN?

Are neighbouring plots fenced?

Are the council attempting to force you to allow the public onto the land?
An order to remove fencing isn't forcing you to allow anyone access, altho' removing fencing might enable others easily to access the land .

Worth noting that whilst fencing is strong evidence of factual possession, it is neither indispensable nor conclusive for a claim of adverse possession

[Mudlark]

Thank you DES8,
when the EN was issued on us,we asked the council to explain why and what we could do you remedy the breach of the EN if there was any taking place. The council told us the only remedy available to us eas to comply in full with the EN.
Plainly stated, remove the fence and move off pur mooring.
Have we got the right to be in possession of this land and exclude all others unless someone with greater than ours comes along?
can we exclude all others by the KEEP OUT PRIVATE LAND signs I stead of the netting?

Thanking you again
Mudlark

[des8]

I think you would obtain different answers to your questions from different people.

This quote from Judge Slade in J A Pye (Oxford) Ltd v Graham [2002] UKHL 30) might give you some idea:

“Factual possession signifies an appropriate degree of physical control. It must be a single and [exclusive] possession, though there can be a single possession exercised on behalf of several persons jointly. Thus an owner of land and a person intruding on that land without his consent cannot both be in possession of the land at the same time. The question what acts constitute a sufficient degree of exclusive physical control must depend on the circumstances, in particular the nature of the land and the manner in which land of that nature is commonly used or enjoyed. Everything must depend on the particular circumstances, but broadly, I think what must be shown as constituting factual possession is that the alleged possessor has been dealing with the land in question as an occupying owner might have been expected to deal with it and that no one else has done so.”


From that I would think that if the concil forbid fencing, then your signage might be adequate to show exclusive possession bof the land.


I note you still haven't received an explanation from the council about the reason for the enforcement notice.
Are there neighouring fenced plots?
Have you asked your local councillor to get involved.

[Mudlark]

Thank you DES8
my neighbours are in the same position as me.
Our problem stems from not been granted the right to appeal the EN, the council and PINS concluded that we were not relevant occupiers even though we had a letter from HMLR stating that as we were on adverse possession of the land under the 2002 land act, we have freehold rights.
Mudlark

[des8]

Have you read the relevant sections of the relevant laws?

regulation 3 of the Town and Country Planning (Enforcement Notices and Appeals) Regulations 1991 (SI 1991/2804), ("the 1991 Regulations") requires every enforcement notice to specify why the LPA consider it "expedient" to issue the notice. The statement of reasons should therefore be included in the text of the enforcement notice

Sec174 (1) of the Town & Country Planning Act 1990 states:
A person having an interest in the land to which an enforcement notice relates or a relevant occupier may appeal to the Secretary of State against the notice, whether or not a copy of it has been served on him.
(note it does not state "legal interest)

It may be assumed squatters have an interest in the land,1) as that interest can be passed to successive squatters to obtain benefit against the rightful owner
2)as (assuming this is unregistered land) you may rely on your continuing factual possession as conferring title to sue any third party trespasser (but not the owner or someone who derives title from him) who interferes with the land