Failing to provide information relating to the identification of a driver

[Guest]

Hi,
looking to get some advice for a court hearing next week for failing to give information relating to the identification of a driver. We’re a vehicle hire firm and received a NIP form for a speeding fine from the 29th july 2019. We responded to this on time giving the customers details. A few weeks later we got a letter saying the customer has told the police he has never owned or driven the vehicle. They needed evidence so we sent screenshots from the cars tracker from the 27th and 28th showing the vehicle directly outside the customers house and told the police he had it from the 26th to 29th and he returned it in the evening of the 29th. We didn’t send anything from the 29th as there was nothing directly outside his house and we were just trying to prove he lied about driving it so we just sent evidence that did this. We spoke to a solicitor recently who thinks this would have been enough evidence for the police to go back and pursue the driver as it proved he lied. The police then called us and asked for screenshots from the 29th showing the vehicle still in the customers town. We told them there would be a delay as we were having issues with our trackers system and couldn’t get on the account to get the screenshots and they didn’t give us a date in which they had to be sent in order to prevent court action. We sent the screenshots to them the following week once our account was working and didn’t hear back from them. We then received a postal requisition 3 months later saying it’s gone to court. We noticed on the court papers that there was a witness statement from the police investigator which says that the customer actually told the police he only had it until the 28th which the police didn’t tell us. They told us he hadn’t driven it at all. If they had told us that he had it until the 28th then we would have sent plenty of evidence proving that he had it until The evening of the 29th. We pleaded not guilty and are using this as our defence as we believe they provided us with incorrect information which prevented us from sending the correct evidence. We are also saying that we did not fail to give information as we provided all information and it turns out the last screenshots we sent were received just 2 days after the police closed it for court. And we’re also saying that they were sent late due to our tracker system not working which was out of our control and we had to wait for our tracker company to fix it and have evidence to prove this. This is the first time this has ever happened to us so we just wanted to know if people with experience believe this would be enough to get a not guilty verdict?

[wales01man]

Wheres the signed and dated hire contract?

[Supercars]

We were unable to locate it which is why we used tracker screenshots

[wales01man]

We were unable to locate it which is why we used tracker screenshots

Might be the evidence thats needed if you are a VAT Registered company you must keep invoices for 6 years or was this not invoiced?

[Supercars]

The fine was issued over a year ago and so we are not sure what happened with the hire agreement. I’m not the manager and so I’m not sure if this was a paid hire or if the driver was a friend of my manager or was just borrowing the car. We use hire agreements instead of invoices as the charges are written on that and payment is taken straight away. Normally if a customer tells the police that it wasn’t them then we just provide tracker screenshots as it’s more accurate and the customer can’t try to say they didn’t sign an agreement and we’ve never had any issues. When we sent the first lot of screenshots the police then requested more and did not mention a hire agreement. The only reason they took it to court is because we sent the last screenshots late which was due to a tracker issue. We spoke to a solicitor who said we have a defence and the only issue might be the delay but we have emails to our tracker company where we reported this issues we had logging in so we can prove the delay was due to an issue out of our hands. We just wanted to get another opinion. We didn’t think we’d need to take a hire agreement with us as we are not being charged for the speeding offence, we’re being charged with failing to provide information.

[islandgirl]

Hi - Failure to provide for an individual carries 6 points not 3 (as speeding) and is a higher fine. I have seen many such cases. Usually the person has not received the request for info due to moving house and the first they know is when their huge fine and points arrive. In these situations a Statutory Declaration can be sworn and this wipes out the punishment but not the original speeding offence. However this case is slightly different. My advice is turn up at court with every single piece of proof you have. Everything. The more the better. The speeding offence will not go away magically even if you are not guilty of failture to provide.

[Supercars]

What do you think our chances are? They told us the driver said he’d never driven the vehicle so we sent proof that he had but didn’t include anything from the fine date as it didn’t prove he had it as it didn’t show the car outside his house. They then asked for proof from the fine date which we sent but they received it 2 days after they closed it for court which was due to a tracker issue which was out of our control. It turned out the driver actually told them that he returned it on the day before the fine so it wasn’t him. If they had told us this then the first time we sent proof we would have sent the screenshots we sent plus Screenshots from the fine date and this would have never gone to court. They gave us incorrect information which prevented us sorting this sooner. We’re using this along with the fact that we didn’t actually fail to provide information as we provided the drivers details and prove he had the car. We have proof of the correspondence between us and the police and correspondence between us and the tracker company when we were trying to sort the issue.

[islandgirl]

Will you be represented in court? If not then you need to organize your evidence and take copies for the magistrates. If you returned the form within the time limits anc have the proof you did so I think it looks good for you but without seeing the prosecution case it is very hard to say. Once again, take EVERYTHING you have including proof of who was the actual driver. If you don't need it - no harm done.

[wales01man]

Hire agreements if you are VAT Registerd include VAT have several here looks dodgy to the police i expect if no agreement was the drive insured?

[Supercars]

Islandgirl- Our manager is attending court. We already sent all the evidence to the court so they have copies on our file. We returned the actual NIP form back on time. The only thing that was late was the 2nd lot if evidence they requested. Do you think this will make a difference?

wales01man- a hire agreement would have been made but we are unable to locate it. The car and driver would have been insured but we are just unable to locate our copy of the agreement to use. The police never requested or mentioned a hire agreement when we spoke to them and neither did the solicitor that we spoke to last week for advice.

[islandgirl]

So you are representing yourselves? If your court is like mine the court clerk will be as helpful as possible during the process and will guide the manager through it carefully. You may also be able to speak to the duty solicitor on the day (not certain for a case like this but worth a try). There may be a lot of waiting around - custody gets priority if it is a custody court. The first issue is the Failure to Provide Information - it seems that you did provide information (as long as this was within the timescale and it identified the driver). The second issue is the actual offence for which you need all the evidence you have. You will need to prove that the vehicle was hired and by whom.Once again take everything even if you think it is not important and good luck.

[Supercars]

So you are representing yourselves? If your court is like mine the court clerk will be as helpful as possible during the process and will guide the manager through it carefully. You may also be able to speak to the duty solicitor on the day (not certain for a case like this but worth a try). There may be a lot of waiting around - custody gets priority if it is a custody court. The first issue is the Failure to Provide Information - it seems that you did provide information (as long as this was within the timescale and it identified the driver). The second issue is the actual offence for which you need all the evidence you have. You will need to prove that the vehicle was hired and by whom.Once again take everything even if you think it is not important and good luck.

Hi its luton magistrates court that we're going to. Do you think they'll be similar to your court? We've never had this issue before and we think this may just be a customer wanting to get out of a speeding offence so is pretending it wasn't them. We provided information as we sent the NIP form back on time. They then requested evidence to support it which was sent on time. They then spoke to our manager and asked for more tracker screenshots which unfortunately were sent 2 days after they closed the case for court due to an issue we had with our trackers which was beyond our control. Do you think we'll be alright as this was the only thing that was late?

[islandgirl]

I have no experience of London courts so cannot say though the process will be the same. I think provided you sent the form back within the prescribed time and provided the driver was clearly identified and you can prove that they had the vehicle it should be OK. But as I say this does not extinguish the original speeding offence.

[Supercars]

I have no experience of London courts so cannot say though the process will be the same. I think provided you sent the form back within the prescribed time and provided the driver was clearly identified and you can prove that they had the vehicle it should be OK. But as I say this does not extinguish the original speeding offence.

Hi at the moment we are just being charged with failing to provide information and have to attend Luton court for this. There is no mention of the speeding offence on the court papers so the evidence we provided must have been enough but its still going to court as the last bit of evidence we sent was 2 days after the police closed it for court.

[islandgirl]

I still find it confusing why this is in court - the initial information should have been enough to avoid the prosecution. I know the speeding offence is not mentioned but take everything with you just in case! I expect London courts are very busy so your manager may well wait around a lot. In our court (if there are no custody cases) we take the people who signed in first at the desk first into court (in sign in order). You could ask to see the duty solicitor too but they may well not agree to see you or be busy but it is a free service if they are.