New Private Road - Parking Charge

[Jamie1977]

Afternoon, first thread here and I have searched for an answer in other threads but each one is slightly different to my case.

1. 9 pm on 4th November the driver parked in a private road, unclear it is such, on double yellow lines. It's a new road that's been built in Liverpool for a couple of apartment blocks
2. The driver ignored 3 requests for payment from VCS
3. The driver ignored the 'Letter before Claim'
4. The driver subsequently received a County Court Letter, issue date: 9th March 2020, the driver acknowledged this on 17th March. The driver believes they have until 11th April.

the driver intended to write to VCS and contest the claim (not in the appeal time limit) but the fleet team in work said any contact admits liability.

Photos attached numbered corresponding to points below

1. There was insufficient lighting to reasonably see the signage
2. VCS ecorded the car details incorrectly, the car is not a 535i. This supports the argument above
3. On 2 of the letters you have sent the driver you show 2 black squares with times and dates as evidence of a contravention. You can literally not see a car, road, sign, anything but black.Based on this* the driver*can see no evidence of any car, let alone my car. This further supports the lighting argument
4. That said the driver has been on the website to view the additional photos. The photo attached below shows the environment with the standard lighting, the sign is very barely visible
5. The photo below supports this argument as your attendant was required to use a flash. In this picture the sign is barely visible, but you can't tell it's the car as the flash prevents this
6. Your parking attendant also used his flash in order to evidence & highlight what that sign says and was obviously c.2 foot away when he/she took the photo
7. In daylight there are clearly signs, but at night the driver is*not willing to concede that they can be expected to be seen given no lighting above them

Regards,
*

[ostell]

Edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, use "the driver........" etc.

Modify this to suit your situation as the signs are saying No Parking without any offer of a contract to park. No contract = no breach = no charge.:

Forbidding signs

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.


You don't present proof in the defence, this comes later with the witness statement with exhibits. And certainly don't use links. You will be simply stating the reasons why you are not liable.


Get your own photos in the dark, ie photos taken without flash at the same time after sunset..* Take down those photos and post them again with personal details redacted.* Post the original PCN so that it is all readable.* Are you sure that the road is private?* Have you checked with the council?

[Jamie1977]

Ostell I can't thank you enough for your reply.*

Can I just work through your reply.

"Edit your post" - do you mean edit it here or in the defense I submit to the county court? I wasn't saying the above was my exact defense, was just posting my views on the matter.

Would you advise I scrap the above re the dark/adequate lighting and do a simple defense of:

1. The signs say 'No Parking without any offer of a contract to park'
2. These signs are of a 'Forbidding Nature' and therefore 'It is limited to cars displaying......etc'
3. In the following cases x, y, z all 3 found this to be the case and therefore no contract with myself and therefore not liable for any breach of contract

*"You don't present proof in the defence" does this refer to what I put on the 'Defense & Counterclaim' part of the form? So I just saying my defense is 1/2/3 above with nothing else for the time being?

"Take down those photos and post them again with personal details redacted"* -* for my privacy I take it? (and I've took them down now)

"Original PCN" - I don't have it. As I remember I didn't get a yellow and black PCN, I'm sure it was a small blue card saying something about privacy and we've logged your details, etc.... I've searched Google for something similar in images but can't find it. I remember thinking it was just a telling off for parking there so didn't keep it as didn't think it would come to this. I've seen other posts about writing to the companies asking for all their documentation on me, shall I do this? These companies are impossible to contact online so would need to be by standard mail, what would be the situation re the 11th April date I have to submit this by?*

Appreciated.

Jamie

[ostell]

Yes, submit a SAR to VCS. It will come in handy later.

you edit it here. This is a public forum and it's not unknown for the parking companies to print of a thread to use in court. If they do not not know the driver it can make it a bit more difficult for them.

pictures and documents are submitted with the witness statement

[Jamie1977]

Ostell, I've submitted this on VCS contact form today:


"
Dear Sir or Madam

Subject access request ( Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) )

NAME & ADDRESS REMOVED

Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law *relating to myself.

This is in reference to PCN XXXXXXXX (REMOVED)
Please ensure you provide a copy of the actual PCN left on the vehicle.

If you need any more data from me to confirm my identity please let me know as soon as possible via email REMOVED, I would also appreciate if you could acknowledge this request ASAP. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

Yours faithfully

Mr.J.Riden
"

[Jamie1977]

Ostell, hope you can help.

I've had no acknowledgement from the online submission for a SAR. Would I have to following in post to the company address?

Secondly I have to submit my defense by 11th April.

Looking at the defense document:

1. I'm disputing full amount claimed
2. I'm not disputing as I've already paid - as I haven't
3. My defense is (please amend):

I dispute this claim on 2 points.

1. The signage in the road is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship.
2. Insufficient lighting/signage for a reasonable person to be expected to see when the proposed incident occurred.

Is this above all I would put at this stage and then submit?

Thank you again for your help.

[ostell]

The have 30 days to respond to a SAR

[Jamie1977]

But do I still have to submit my defense?

[ostell]

Yes, unfortunately

You've copied my text about forbidding signs verbatim.* You have to modify to suit your circumstances, I'm sure there was no permits mentioned.

Your defence is submitted as a PDF attachment to email

You must have a look at defences in other threads on here an on Pepipoo forum and work out a defence.* Does the particulars of claim make sense, does it give the reason that the driver allegedly breached the contract.* Are they claiming against the driver or the keeper?

[Jamie1977]

Ostell, the signage (photo attached) doesn't state anything relating to permits on the main T&Cs (I'm riding down on my bike to photo the fine print today) so I'm unsure as to whether the 'forbidding' applies. On the court papers it does say "The terms & conditions upon entering private land were clearly displayed at the entrance and in prominent locations'. I am saying that looking into the road (see attached photo) there are no signs to make you think it's a private road, and then the signs that are there are not clearly lit at night and it's not unreasonable that the driver may have not seen them given their lack of prominence.

I have to submit my defense by 11th (tomorrow) and I'm flapping here a bit.

Help always appreciated.

[ostell]

The forbidding signage still applies, there is no offer of a contract to park, just there are no permits in play.

[Jamie1977]

Ostell, this is the defense I have constructed. I'd appreciate your feedback.

Kind regards,

Jamie





In the Northampton County Court Business Centre

Claim No: XXXXXXX

Vehicle Control Services Limited

Claimant

And

XXXXXXX

Defendant

DEFENCE

1. The Defendant received the claim XXXXXXX from the Northampton County Court on 9th March 2020

2. Each and every allegation in the Claimants statement of case is denied unless specifically admitted in this Defence.

3. This claim is for breach of contract for breaching the terms and conditions set on private land.

4. It is denied that the Defendant had entered into an agreement with the Claimant for provision of parking under the terms and conditions of the signage.

5. The Claimants statement of case states that ‘the claim is for a breach of contract’. The Defendant believes the signage is of a “forbidding” nature and it does not constitute an offer to park and therefore no contract can be entered into. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

6. The Claimants statement of case states that ‘the terms and conditions upon entering private land were clearly displayed at the entrance’.

The Defendant would like to draw attention to IPC Code of Practice Schedule 1 – Signage

PART E Schedule 1 - Signage

Entrance Signs

This schedule prescribes the signage characteristics you must try to adhere to. It is accepted there will be instances where the nature of the controlled land does not make strict compliance feasible. In such cases you are required to keep to the spirit of the guidance.
Where a site does not invite parking of any kind, the ‘P’ sign may be omitted.
Where a car park has a defined entrance, you may wish to display entrance signs that do not contain the full terms and conditions of parking.

Entrance Signs should:

a) Make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land
b) Refer the motorist to the signs within the car park which display the full terms and conditions.
c) Identify yourself (where you are a limited company. This should be by reference to your full company name, your company number and the jurisdiction within which your company is registered).

Contrast and illumination

The colours used on signage should be such that the contrast between the background and the text makes the wording on the sign clearly legible. Black text on a white background or white text on a black background will provide a suitable contrast. Other colour combinations can be adopted at your discretion but you should avoid combinations which might cause difficulties for the visually impaired.
If parking enforcement takes place outside of daylight hours you should ensure that signs are illuminated or there is sufficient other lighting. You will need to ensure all signs are readable during the hours of enforcement as they form the legal basis of any charge.

There are no signs on the approach or on the outward facing/public areas to the private land to make it clear you are leaving the public highway and entering private land.

There are signs within the private land but they are not all illuminated. There is a sign illuminated but it is not within sufficient distance to be feasibly acknowledged given where the alleged incident took place and the time of day/daylight.

It is the Defendant’s opinion that the lack of any entrance signage, position of signage and lack of sufficient illumination makes them totally inadequate for the purpose of bringing parking conditions to the attention of motorists.

7. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore, it is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

8.The Defendant respectfully requests the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for The Defendant to fully plead his case else the Claim should stand struck out.

9. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimant, the Defendant will then be in a position to amend his defence, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

10. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief as claimed or at all.



Statement of Truth



The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

Signed _____XXXXXXX
Dated _______XXXXXXX_________

[Jamie1977]

Morning, so I posted my defense and have received a 'Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claims Track' a few days ago that needs a reply by 4th May.

It talks of direct discussion with the other party (who is impossible to contact) or mediation.

My questions:
1. Do I want to try mediation based on the fact I say I'm not in the wrong and admit no liability and they say I am? Do I say no to being referred to the Small Claims mediation service?
2. Is the small claims track the right track for me?

Thank you and I hope you are all safe and well during this time.

Jamie