Intestate accounts

[Guest]

My uncle died intestate only had cash in bank account no other assets. My family nominated me to close off my uncles affairs. Forms were signed and sent to bank. The bank did not need letters of administratioa as there was little cash involved and fulfilled their criteria. I fulfilled my obligations and sent everyone a cheque once my uncles debts were paid. I took on the job under the umbrella of "family trust" or I thought. After 6 months one brother is asking for a breakdown of funds. He is threatening me in an abusive way and has never asked me for any proof up until now. This I believe is just spites ,he his a millionaire and we are only talking about £900 each. I am now feeling as if he is accusing me of being dishonest. My other 3 siblings are quite happy. The bank was quite happy to release funds without anything being in place accept the authorisation forms that I was nominated to be the point of contact. Does anyone know whether I legally need to present accounts?

[des8]

so why not produce the accounts for him?

As a residuary beneficiary he is entitled to see the estate accounts and he could apply for a court order for you to produce them.

[Guest]

As I was not an executor and the Bank had not requested any legal documentation as this was not a requirement. I have assumed it was a family thing done on trust. He could contact the Bank to confirm figures. I spent many hours clearing my uncles flat (he was a hoarder). I think I have been a little naive as I did not employ a house clearance company as I felt I was protecting their small inheritance. I had no help whatsoever as they felt my uncle was not worthy and no contact for 40 years. A lessen to be learned here. I believed I did my best for them all and now getting threats.

[des8]

I'm sure you did your best, and did it very well. None of the other beneficiaries have questioned you.

However you did act as your uncles personal representative or administrator and had to act in accordance with the Intestacy Rules
So you do need to provide an accounting if a residuary beneficiary requests one

It is more than likely that the bank would not disclose any information to the questioning relative.

It always amazes me, how it is usually the family member least affected who creates the ill feeling

[Guest]

Thank you for your reply. I cannot produce receipts as I considered the matter was closed and go rid off documents. Is there a time limit to make requests? I had to use my own money to provide basic goods so my uncle could come home to die. I could not draw out of my uncles account until I became a signatory . Unfortunately the confirmation came on the day he died. It was a very sad case. He slept on the floor with no bedding. I had to travel 3 hrs each way to sort out his everyday needs. It was very hard going. I too cannot believe a person can be so callous to a person who cared, particularly by a family member. I am sure even if my brother had the figures he will not stop there as that is his bullish nature. I am not sure what he thinks he can gain as there is no more money or any other assets. This is really making me ill and I have a major operation coming up which he knows. I really feel I have gone out of my way to protect their small inheritance. Oh well you live by your mistakes.

[des8]

Sometimes one has to wonder where people come from and what their priorities are

Although you can't produce receipts you should be able to recreate some of the accounts from memory and what is reasonable.
For example the bank will still have records, your costs whilst sorting out your uncle's flat can be recreated eg travel costs (if by car I think an allowance of 45p per mile) plus you could award yourself a subsistence allowance , plus any costs in disposing of the detritus.
Costs incurred prior to your uncle's passing might not be claimable, unless your uncle had agreed to meet them.

I don't think there is any time limit for a residuary beneficiary to request an accounting, as an administrators liability is open ended timewise.

I'm tagging Peridot for confirmation, as she will be more certain in her advice.
However she possibly won't be on the forum until after the Easter weekend.

[Peridot]

Hi Poppyx,
What a shame this hasn't run smoothly when you have evidently tried your best to deal with the estate.
As Des8 suggested I would be inclined to prepare some 'accounts' So you can set out the assets of the estate so the bank account value at the date your uncle died and any valuable items your Uncle had (I suspect none from what you have indicated).
Then set out those expenses incurred while dealing with the estate after he died such as travel to the property to clear it. Administrators can not charge for their time in dealing with the estate but reasonable expenses can be deducted such as travle and payments for death certificates B&B if you had to stay overnight as examples. Any debts and funeral expenses are also deducted. Whatever is left is then divided as per the intestacy rules.

As far as no longer having receipts is concerned, if items were paid by card (bank or credit) could you not get the amounts from a bank statement?
Items that were purchased prior to the death and you have 'refunded' to yourself, would need to be approved by the beneficiaries if the sum has been deducted after the date of death and usually you would need proof of the purchases. Again bank statements may assist you here.

Is the relative demanding a full inventory itemising everything? It is not reasonable to expect all someone's belongings to be valued. Generally most items are sent to charity shops. Of course if furniture was auctioned or given away the sum received or the likely value of the item should be included in the account to be divided between the beneficiaries or deducted from a beneficiary's share, if they received an item of value post death.

If for example you purchased a bed and bedding which was then not used and you either kept the bed yourself or sold it then that amount should be deducted from your share and divided equally between the other beneficiaries.

I would suggest writing down all you can remember and backing it up with bank statements where possible. If there are any 'refunds' for things purchased by you before your uncle died these should be evidenced and agreed with the other beneficiaries.

Hopefully this helps.

[Guest]

I have sent all four of them a statement of account, but only one of them has asked. They have all had their cheques 6 months go and no queries raised then. They all verbally told me to take out what I was owed first, which I have done. .I am not being asked for a full inventory. My uncle lived in a privately rented flat as a recluse, slept on the floor and basically had no other assets or valuables but hoarder's rubbish and broken woodworm infested furniture. Before he came out of hospital I had to buy bedding as he could not leave hospital to die until he agreed to have a proper bed. He told me to buy whatever I needed and I could draw it out of his account. This bedding was so soiled it was destroyed. I was only too happy to do this. He did put me on his account as a signatory so I could pay his future bills as he was obviously bed bound with double incontinence and severe vomiting. Unfortunately, confirmation from the Bank came through on the day he died. I could not reimburse myself, as the account was frozen. Because of the distance (109 miles each way)I had to register his death, arrange the funeral and see the Bank and do some clearing out of the flat over a 2 day period, I stayed in accommodation but did not claim. Did not realise I could. I think I have been fair and honest in my dealings. I just cannot understand why I am being hassled after 6 months. I can only think it is out of spite, the amount in question was only £992 each and the person who started this is a millionaire. He tried to get my parents to transfer their house to him with a privacy clause so that us siblings did not know. That is another matter! He has threatened me with legal action and he would make me pay his costs. Can he do this? I' m finding this very distasteful as I naively believed it would be under "family trust". I also fought the landlord to prevent him making a claim so, in effect, protected their interests. What have I done wrong? I did consult a solicitor and I was advised to walk way, not make a claim on their behalf and hand back the keys as I was not responsible to clear the flat. In effect I was doing all the hard work on their behalf. I wish I had done this. Thank you for your comments.

[Peridot]

I’m sure you have done nothing wrong and done the best you could in very difficult circumstances.
it sounds like you can justify/prove any money owed to you by your uncle and demonstrate you had tried to sort this out to allow you to deal with his account but unfortunately time ran out.
i would suggest you write down as much as you can remember about any of the amounts you paid and travel etc etc, just anything you think could be helpful in demonstrating what things you did for him, including bills paid etc. Once you’ve done that just put it to one side and forget about it.
it is for him to make the claim. If he is unsuccessful then you would not have to pay his costs.
Once you have noted things down and if he actually makes a claim, maybe get yourself a free half hour or reduced fee initial appointment with a litigation specialist to discuss your options.
If all the amounts you claimed can be explained and are reasonable then what can he argue about. This may just be threats to try and get more money assuming you’d be worried enough to pay it rather than go to Court?
Get all your information together and keep it safely. Here if you need us.

[Guest]

Thank you for info. I cannot see he can gain anymore money as there is none. He has had his share 6 months ago and has proof of the bank balance. Is there a rule with regards travel by car mileage? Des8 mentioned 45p per mile. Is this correct?

Thank you so much for your information. It has taught me a lesson not to be in charge of sorting out people's financial affairs. I do not regret it in this case. My uncle was 90 and I promised my dad,who is no longer with us, I would take care of his brother. This I fulfilled.

[des8]

The HMRC approved rate is 45p per mile (see HMRC: Expenses and benefits: business travel mileage for employees' own vehicles). so if it is good enough for HMRC...........

[Peridot]

If it were a claim I’d start at 45ppm, although if this were litigation rather than an executor expense, where the Court is deciding judges will often reduce the mileage amount so it can be a negotiation point but that is not the same as your estate administration costs, so I’d always claim at 45ppm in a probate situation.

[Guest]

Many thanks for this information. This is something else I did not know and underclaimed.

[Guest]

Hi. Can anyone help answer my question please? Can a sole executor get a solicitor to help administer the estate without consulting the beneficiaries he wishes to do so?

[Peridot]

Hi Poppyx,
A names executor can instruct a solicitor to assist with dealing with the estate of the deceased and does not have to obtain permission from the beneficiaries. The solicitors costs would be a testamentary expense that is deducted from the residue of the estate before distribution to the residuary beneficiaries.
of course an executor (or administrator where there is no will) should consider whether the cost of instructing is a sensible use of the estate funds however it is their decision.
Hope that helps.