Boundary dispute - if I 'win' can I claim cost from neighbour?

[connie_cat]

I have a boundary dispute with my neighbour. I have not yet started any format process, or appoint a solicitor, surveyor, etc as I am weighing up my options as to how to proceed.

The boundary line on our title deeds shows a straight line, but in reality the fency steps onto our side of the boundary significantly. Their argument is that it has been line this since before both parties movied in. Although they have not used the term "adverse posesison", I think this is what they are implying. My reading of "adverse posession" leads me to think that they will fail. So we are in dispute ....

But ... I need to somehow start a legal process to get the fence on the boundary. If I "win", and the end result of this legal process is a decision that the fence should be moved and made straight, can I then claim back the legal costs and other fees (e.g. surveyors) I incurred to correct this wrong?

[james_law]

Hi,

Firstly, you say about deeds, is your land registered? ie have your registered your land with the Land Registry?

Confirming boundaries is a very costly process, so please bear that in mind. Also the the boundary line you are referring to is just general therefore not conclusive.

I would really suggest speaking to your neighbour and trying to resolve it that way, if this is not possible going before the court is then really your only option. You need to prove the land is yours, you will need a surveyor. If the surveyor confirms that the land is yours then please take this information to your neighbour and show them the evidence you have, hopefully this will resolve the issue.


Regarding costs, without going into too much detail. Yes but up to a point.

[des8]

Do also bear in mind that if this concern goes to court, when you or your neighbour come to sell the dispute will have to be reported to potential purchasers and it could well blight both properties.
Try and keep discussions amicable

[2222]

Do also bear in mind that if this concern goes to court, when you or your neighbour come to sell the dispute will have to be reported to potential purchasers and it could well blight both properties.
Try and keep discussions amicable

Can I also point out that there may come a point where, even though you are in the right, it's more sensible to let it rest and not pursue the matter. The maths works out like this:

Suppose that land is worth £1m per acre. There are around 40,000 square feet to the acre, so that's £25 psf. Garden land is less valuable than the land you can actually build on, though. If the dispute concerns say 20 square feet of garden, that's a value of £500 that's in dispute. I suppose it might be quite a bit more if you are in the middle of Chelsea or Mayfair, but unless it's been a massive land grab £500 is typical of the value involved.

The cost of these cases can be up to £100,000, and even if you win and get awarded costs, you never get all your costs back. So, you could be out of pocket by thousands of pounds, even though you win the case hands down. And that's all over land worth hundreds, not thousands, of pounds.

If you can negotiate an agreement, that's almost certainly the sensible solution, even if it costs you money. For example, it might be sensible to offer to pay the whole cost of rebuilding the fence.

[Crazy council]

Hi


There's a few ways you can deal with this depending on the land/area planning at the time it was originally built.

Firstly, mapped out marks on plans and land reg docs aren't supposed to be accurate

Check the original plans when the area/property was built and the land divided down into plots. Use the measurements on there to go from the highway/roadside, and mesure towards your plot.

If you have a dispute then, you would register it with the land reg and employ and agreed surveyor to do an assessment. ,
,

[connie_cat]

Thank you all for your responses. All very helpful, thank you.

... is your land registered? ie have your registered your land with the Land Registry?

Yes. We bought this house a few years ago. Neighbours bought their house 17 years ago.

Also the the boundary line you are referring to is just general therefore not conclusive.

But it is clearly a straight line. Every property visible on the title deed has straight lines (not necessarily at right angles), but clearly straight lines. And this particular fence steps in at one point, about 2 feet.

I would really suggest speaking to your neighbour and trying to resolve it that way, if this is not possible going before the court is then really your only option. You need to prove the land is yours, you will need a surveyor. If the surveyor confirms that the land is yours then please take this information to your neighbour and show them the evidence you have, hopefully this will resolve the issue.

A survey's drawing will not convince them as they do not dispute the fence's location. They think it is their's by right as it was like that when they bought.

Regarding costs, without going into too much detail. Yes but up to a point.

Can you please advise me on where I can find out more about this. Who/what decides what can be claimed?

[2222]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costs_in_English_law

That's a good starting point. It's absolutely normal not to get all your costs back, even if you win.

do you know when the fence was originally moved?

[Amethyst]

So it's been like it for at least 17 years and you've lived there for a few years. Is there a reason why this has just become an issue ? ( building work / extension planned etc ? - basically is it really important and not just you fancy an extra couple foot of garden ... thinking costs and the dispute affect on house value, not to mention relations with neighbours ... )

Dont know the age of your property but research the original planning if possible - council planning dept should hold the info.

And you'd need to do some digging to try find out when / if the boundary was changed ( bearing in mind deeds are general ) have you traced owners of your property back ? how long before 2003 basically ( I believe it'd have to have been before 1991 )

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...3-october-2003


and on costs - https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2016/1375.html
its by no means at all guaranteed your neighbour would have to pay costs even if you won - and indeed even if you did obtain costs - would they be able to pay it ?

[connie_cat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costs_in_English_law

That's a good starting point. It's absolutely normal not to get all your costs back, even if you win.

do you know when the fence was originally moved?

Thanks for the link. I do not know, and probably neither does the neighbour.

[connie_cat]

So it's been like it for at least 17 years and you've lived there for a few years. Is there a reason why this has just become an issue ? ( building work / extension planned etc ? - basically is it really important and not just you fancy an extra couple foot of garden ... thinking costs and the dispute affect on house value, not to mention relations with neighbours ... )

Dont know the age of your property but research the original planning if possible - council planning dept should hold the info.

And you'd need to do some digging to try find out when / if the boundary was changed ( bearing in mind deeds are general ) have you traced owners of your property back ? how long before 2003 basically ( I believe it'd have to have been before 1991 )

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...3-october-2003


and on costs - https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2016/1375.html
its by no means at all guaranteed your neighbour would have to pay costs even if you won - and indeed even if you did obtain costs - would they be able to pay it ?

Thank you, this is very helpful.

We bought the house 3 years ago, and had a nightmare with builders. Moved in a year ago. But didn't use the side alley as it was a mess and very cramped. Now we are getting around to landscaping, we looked more closely and realised the discrpency in the boundary (we are cramped because the fence steps in).

You link to a Land Registry Practise Guide 5, but this applies to adverse posession where a right to be registered was acquired before 13 October 2003. I beleive that it is more appropriate to read Land Registry Practise Guide 4, as this applies to adverse posession after that date. For starters, please tell me that they need to apply for it! They cant just squat on the land and say "tough luck". That is unfair if they can occupy the land without bothering to registry for adverse posession.

And my reading of adverse posession leads me to think that they will fail because we bought our house from the estate of a chap who passed away. This quote from Praticse Guide 4:

The following circumstances prevent an application being made for registration based on adverse possession
...
the estate in land was held on trust at any time during the period of 10 years ending on the date of the application, unless the interest of each of the beneficiaries in the estate was an interest in possession (Schedule 6, paragraph 12 of the Land Registration Act 2002)

• arguably this means that an application cannot be made where, at any point during this period, the registered proprietor at the time (i) was dead and their estate was being administered, (ii) was bankrupt and their property was being administered by the trustee in bankruptcy or (iii) (being a company) was being wound up. In each of these cases the registered estate is subject to a form of trust (Ayerst v C & K (Construction) Ltd [1976] A.C. 167)

So, please tell me they have to either apply for adverse posession, or get off my land? Is there anything else they can try?

(And please correct any misunderstanding I may have. I appreciate all your contributions.)

[Amethyst]

I'll tag des8 in as I think he understands the adverse possession rules.

Are your neighbours completely unamendable to moving the fence to a straight line? It really would be much easier to discuss and maybe offer something (goodwill wise) so you can have your side alley useable ? Neighbour disputes can get insane very quickly.

Then if nothing doing, you will need formal legal advice, and probably pay for an independent expert report to say where the boundary should be.

Archive aerial photos, planning docs, library / council etc to try find out as much as you can before spending any monies.

[des8]

I actually think you may be approaching this from the wrong angle.
You are assuming that your neighbours are going to make a claim for adverse possession.
In fact they don't have to do this as they are in possession of the land.
It is for you to prove they are trespassing and need to vacate the land.
To do this you will need to prove on balance of probabilities that the land is yours.
This will entail research, as per Amethyst's post, employment of chartered surveyors court fees and probably a solicitor.
Courts don't like dealing with cases like this, and there is no guarantee , even if you win, that you will recoup any of your costs.

RICS have a boundary dispute helpline that might advise: 02476 868555

[2222]

Thanks for the link. I do not know, and probably neither does the neighbour.

That's not a good basis for litigation. How old are the houses? Could this all have been agreed perhaps many years ago?

[connie_cat]

I actually think you may be approaching this from the wrong angle.
You are assuming that your neighbours are going to make a claim for adverse possession.

Yes that is what I was assuming. I see your point about having to force them to take action. And I will attempt a dispute resolution, as suggested. Thank you.

[connie_cat]

That's not a good basis for litigation. How old are the houses? Could this all have been agreed perhaps many years ago?

The houses are 1930s houses. Yes it could have been agreed many years ago. But there is documentation for a party wall move/agreement on the other boundary, so I'm surprised there is nothing in writing for this boundary now in question. The old man who lived in this house would be what we today call 'vulnerable'. He was taken advantage of by travelers and as new owners we are having to cleanup/re-do many of these things. I think it was moved during his time. The current neighbours also moved another part of the fence a year or two before he was put into an old people's home. They seem to think it's fair game to move a fence to their advantage.