Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

[Jackh]

Would appreciate advice from member expert with regard to mis selling.
I can supply all key facts and progress to date. I feel I have a very strong case but feel ombudsman service are going to rule against.
I am running out of time and do not have the time for long drawn out forum discussions, so would it be better for me to give all my info to one suitably recommended person in your forum?
Best regards
jackh

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

IMO Ombudsman service aren't "experts" anyway!!
Does this refer back to your posts of two years ago?

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi Des
Thanks for your reply. Yes this is connected to my complaint to Canada Life in Oct 2014 which they refused and has now become very interesting. Your input would be very welcome and if interested could provide you with more details tomorrow.
I might have to consider a no win no fee solicitor if Ombud. refuses against overwhelming evidence in my favour of me to being mis sold.I look forward to your input.
Best regards, Jack

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Look forward to further postings

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi.
Yes this has been going on since Aug.2014 when I complained to the Company, Canada Life Ltd I had been mis sold insurance by Mr Tom Adams. their Financial Advisor.
My complaints go back to the issue in 1985 of two policies, 1/ Whole Life Policy 4252487. 2/ A term Life Insurance 4252488.
Both Canada Life and The Ombudsman investigated these believing I was the owner. Both turned down my complaints.

Mr Adams advised me in November 1993 to surrender Policy 4252487 and place the proceeds in to my pension plan. He made out the documents and I signed.

Policy 4252488 allowed the owner to `convert under an option`.
Mr Adams advised that I activate my option. On the Financial Review being carried out at this time (22/11/93) Mr Adams writes,
"Jack wishes to exercise his option under Policy 4252488... At the same time surrender Policy 4252487 and dump the surrender value into his PPP. This exercise was recommended last year but at the time Jack wanted to leave things....."
The Ombudsman was told by Canada Life in the early stages of their enquiries that all papers in respect of 4252487 and 4252488 had been lost or destroyed. This prevented the Ombudsman investigating in respect of these policies or there may have been a different result.
It is now revealed that my wife Jean was the owner of these policies !
At the moment Ombudsman are saying they cannot investigate what they have already considered,4252488 !

I am awaiting a reply from them.
Does anyone think I have been mis-sold ?

jackh

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Trying to understand what has happened:

You effected two policies in 1985 1/ Whole Life Policy 4252487 2/ A term Life Insurance 4252488.
Ownership of both policies was assigned to your wife (altho' your comment post 5 "It is now revealed that my wife Jean was the owner of these policies !" seems to express surprise)
In 1993 You were advised by MR tom Adams (a Canada life employee ?) to surrender the whole life policy and place proceeds in your PPP. You signed the necessary documents.
At the same time (?) you exercised your option under the term policy to replace it.
Before agreeing to a replacement you were advised of the benefits/disadvantages and should have signed a form (like the one below) to signify you were aware of the implications.
You believe the fact your wife signed it signifies you were not aware of the implications, and thus the replacement policy was mis sold (to your disadvantage).
You did however sign the new proposal.

IF the above is correct:
1) how did you transfer the proceeds of the whole life policy to your PPP if the policy was owned by your wife?
2) the replacement form does not form part of the proposal, it only confirms you have been told about the implications. It is really just so that the company can point to it in the event a customer calls foul.
3) I assume that in 2014 you realised that the replacement was not an advantageous move and that you are claiming you were not informed of the implications?

May i ask what particular circumstances gave rise ti this realisation?
I'm only trying to understand what and why... not pry,

Life Insurance Replacement Declaration
Do not cancel your existing policy until the new policy is in force and you accept it. Before you cancel your lifeinsurance policy you should have answers to the questions below. Ask any insurance agent or broker, or an independentperson, for help if you need it.

Questions about your present life insurance policy
1. Why do you want to replace your policy? Is the new policy better for you? How?
2. Should you just buy more insurance or change your policy? How much will these changes cost?
3. When should you cancel your present policy? When is your next annual dividend paid? Will the timing affect yourcancellation charges?
4. Will you pay more income tax if you cancel your present policy?Questions on the advantages and disadvantages of a new life insurance policy
1. Do you understand the type of insurance policy you are buying? Is it a term life, whole life, or universal life insurancepolicy? You should know the differences.
2. Are there times when the new policy will not pay all the benefits that your present policy does? Examples are suicideand contestable periods and contractual exclusions.
3. Will the new policy pay as much as your present policy? Examples are death benefits, cash values, and dividends.
4. Does the new policy have the same extra, or optional, benefits as your present policy? Examples are waiver ofpremium, guaranteed insurability, accidental death, and family member riders.
5. Are there cancellation charges on the new policy?
6. What guarantees apply to your present and proposed policies? Which policy has the best guarantees?
7. Will either of the policy premiums (payments) go up? For how long will the premiums stay the same? How much willthey increase?

Important: Please ensure that the agent or broker provides you with copies of the written explanation of theadvantages and disadvantages of replacing your life insurance policy with a new policy.
I confirm that I have received this Life Insurance Replacement Declaration.
_________________________ _______________________Client’s signature Date
I have given the client this document and a written explanation of the advantages and disadvantages of replacing theirlife insurance policy, before starting the application for a new policy._________________________ ________________________Agent or broker’s signature Date

Note: Your agent or broker should deliver and review the new policy with you. If the policy is not satisfactory for anyreason you may have a right to reject it and receive a full refund of premiums, under provincial or territorial law or undercontract. Check the policy and the law for the right of rejection and the time limit for rejection

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi Des
Thanks for your reply.
My wife Jean was the owner of both the 1985 policies during all the time the advisor was advising ME what I should do with them.
1.Surrender 4252487 and pay proceeds into my PPP.
2.Excercise my option on 4252488
I was not authorised to do these things. I was not the owner and did not become aware of this until Company advised they had found the documents in April 2017 ! they had earlier reported destroyed. These application documents were found and sent to prove ownership of both policies because I had said that if I am the owner my wife should not sign the Replacement Questionnare.
Advisor completed an amendment form for Personal Retirement Plan3404304 .Pay into this plan proceeds from 4252487 which I signed. My wife signed the Replacement Policy Questionnaire.
I believe that in sending the documents to prove my wife the owner then they also prove that I was not entitled to sign them away from her by the advice given by Advisor.
jackh

[MIKE770]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Canada life - had problems years ago lost monies due to their so called salesman wrong advice = lost it all all they stated the adviser left company whereabouts not known

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

I understand the complaint made by you was a mis selling of the replacement policy.
You also said that it had caused you loss,
But if your wife was the owner of the policies I'm struggling on the info provided to understand how you have made a loss.

On the facts as presented you transferred the whole life policy proceeds to your pension fund.
The term life policy was replaced after the owner (your wife) signed the declaration.

Is there more information we should be aware of?

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi
Thanks for your reply and for your patience in this matter. My head is spinning trying to work it all out.
The matter currently being considered by Ombudsman is my complaint I was wrongly advised and sold Policy No 8546734-1/10 on
23rd Nov.1993 by an advisor working for Manulife,later to become Canada Life Ltd.
The key to triggering the setting up of Policy 8546734 was for the advisor to suggest to the owner that it was time to activate the
`Conversion Option` contained within the policy 4252488.
The advisor did not contact my wife who was the owner for this purpose but he contacted me,first in 1992 and then on 23/11/93.
All the advice and recommendations with respect to this conversion and sale was given directly to me and subsequently all the decisions made in judgement by Canada Life and Ombudsman have been made in the false belief I was the owner and had been correctly advised by their advisor
The Ombudsman did initially send a refusal to accept my complaint about 4252488 and leading to the sale of 8546734,saying it had already been considered. They are now looking again as I pointed they could not have considered as they previously reported it lost.

The money I have lost relates to monthly payments to 8546734 until 2004.

In a letter to me of 24th April 2017 Canada Life inform me they have found the documents relating to 4252487/ 4252488 proving that my wife Jean was the owner of these.
Following this admission I submitted the latest complaint for mis selling of the 1993 insurance.
From my first complaint in Aug 2014 to present time, all refusals of my complaints by Canada Life and Ombudsman have been under the illusion of me being the owner.
The owner did not receive any direct advice but will have heard the odd word when walking past the desk in to warehouse.

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

I'm still trying to understand exactly what has happened and the timeline.

So you activated the conversion option to change term policy 4252488. (near end date?) to whole life policy 8546734.
The opportunity to convert (normally at guaranteed coverage and premiums regardless of health status) is usually regarded as a privilege.
You (or rather your wife) had the benefit of the life cover so the assurance company would argue the premiums were not "lost money" by you.

In 1993 you discussed with Mr Adams your option.
At that time you were advised by Mr Adams that it would be advantageous to activate the option?
You also say "All the advice and recommendations with respect to this conversion and sale was given directly to me"
!n 1994 your wife signed the "replacement declaration" signifying she had been told of the implications of activating the option, although you claim "The owner did not receive any direct advice but will have heard the odd word when walking past the desk in to warehouse."
In 1994 you exercised that option,

I (mis?) understand your claim is that you were mis sold, i.e. it was not to your advantage to activate the option to convert and you were not given correct advice.

On the basis of my understanding I feel you will have great difficulty
1) showing you were mis sold
2) showing you were badly advised
3) lost money

And likewise, as your wife signed the declaration, I doubt she has any cause for action.

May I ask what made you think after 20 years that you had been given poor advice and missold a policy?

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi Des
Thank you for your reply.
With regard to the activation of the conversion option of policy 4252488.
I received advice to convert the option. I accepted the advice of Mr Adams and agreed to convert not knowing at the time I was not the owner and therefor unauthorised to do this. Clearly I activated it but illegally.

You ask about all the information being given to me. Well yes it was and because I believed and my wife believed and it would appear Mr Adams believed I was the owner of the policies being advised on.
My wife was in the warehouse premises and answered the odd question on our financial circumstances but was mainly concerned with answering the phone and serving customers.

The Replacement Questionnaire does appear to contain the signature of my wife as `client` at the top of the form but reflecting on the accuracy and knowledge of the advisor the top of the form shows the client Jack Hobson.
Under reasons for replacement we have
1. 4252487 and surrender value being dumped in to PRP3404304.

2.4252487 to be converted under an option- Insured and Applicant JACK HOBSON.
No there is no mistake he has both policies numbered the same.

The Replacement Questionnaire is undated.

When Canada life found the documents to prove my wife had correctly signed the Questionnaire it also proved she was the owner of the 1985 policies This evidence was revealed in a letter from Canada Life Ltd dated 24/04/2017.

The details were sent to my wife as they said I could not see them without her permission.

I started my claim in 2014 on the advice of my son who had taken over the payments approx 2 years before but Canada Life Int.
now wanted £168 p.m. or reduce payout to £28000. This seemed to be their modus-operandi so decided to opt out.
Hope this throws more light on the matter and explains more of my concerns.

jackh

[des8]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi Des
Thank you for your reply.
With regard to the activation of the conversion option of policy 4252488.
I received advice to convert the option. I accepted the advice of Mr Adams and agreed to convert not knowing at the time I was not the owner and therefor unauthorised to do this. Clearly I activated it but illegally. Not illegally, but in error. There was no mens rea

You ask about all the information being given to me. Well yes it was and because I believed and my wife believed and it would appear Mr Adams believed I was the owner of the policies being advised on.
My wife was in the warehouse premises and answered the odd question on our financial circumstances but was mainly concerned with answering the phone and serving customers.

The Replacement Questionnaire does appear to contain the signature of my wife as `client` at the top of the form but reflecting on the accuracy and knowledge of the advisor the top of the form shows the client Jack Hobson.
Under reasons for replacement we have
1. 4252487 and surrender value being dumped in to PRP3404304.

2.4252487 to be converted under an option- Insured and Applicant JACK HOBSON.
No there is no mistake he has both policies numbered the same.

The Replacement Questionnaire is undated.

When Canada life found the documents to prove my wife had correctly signed the Questionnaire it also proved she was the owner of the 1985 policies This evidence was revealed in a letter from Canada Life Ltd dated 24/04/2017.

The details were sent to my wife as they said I could not see them without her permission.

I started my claim in 2014 on the advice of my son who had taken over the payments approx 2 years before but Canada Life Int.
now wanted £168 p.m. or reduce payout to £28000. This seemed to be their modus-operandi so decided to opt out.
Hope this throws more light on the matter and explains more of my concerns.

jackh

Comment in red.
So there were a number of errors and certainly some sloppy administration, but there is nothing in your postings that suggests you would not have made any other decisions even if you had realised your wife was the owner of the policies.
You asked at the beginning "Does anyone think I have been mis-sold ?".
answering only for myself, i think you will have a difficult time trying to show that there was any mis selling.
I'm sorry I am not more positive, but other than the actual ownership of the policies, both you and your wife acknowledge you were informed about the effect of the changes.
I doubt that the errors noted amount to a miis selling.
I wish you luck with the ombudsman, but if he decides against you be careful before embarking on court action.

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi
Thanks for your input of advice to date.
jackh

[Jackh]

Re: Whole of Life Ins mis sold claims.Ombudsman involved.

Hi
The advisor said in writing in 1992 and again in 1993 to me, that I was the owner of the policy 4252488 and advised it was time for me to use my conversion option. This was a misrepresentation of fact which I acted upon.
Can anyone advise which law this would be under for Consumer Protection in 1992/3. I believe there is now a new law on this enacted in 2008.
jackh