Business Rates

[Brendon]

Hi all, this is my first ever post on any forum so apologies for any mistakes.

Yesterday a bailiff came to my shop without giving any prior notice. We received no documentation from them. As soon as he came he demanded £11,000 for unpaid business rates for ABC Limited for 2012. I told him this is ABCD Limited. He asked for proof. I showed him letter from landlord, HMRC and bank statement. He then said he still going ahead and if I don't pay he will start removing the goods. Both companies are registered to the same address and does have the same director.

I called my solicitors who asked me to email them the warrant. The bailiff immediately called his office and emailed me a letter of authority and said that's all he has. Basically the bailiff did not have the letter of authority when he walked into my shop.

The police arrived and went straight to the bailiff and then came to me. The bailiff again showed no documents to the police only his ID and some information on the tablet.

The police then came and before they walked into the shop the bailiff visit letter was handed to me by the bailiff. The police went to the bailiff first and then approached me and I told them that this company does not owe the money. The police said that the bailiff can take away the goods and that I can appeal later. It was as if the police had already made up their mind. Whilst I was talking to the police the bailiff came behind the counter and I shouted at him to get out. The police then told me that they will arrest me if I stopped him doing his job.

I told the police I have valuable equipment, the bailiff cannot empty my whole shop for a £11k debt. The bailiff said the debt is for £11k but he need to secure £50k worth of goods because for auction. I asked for time to pay, that too was refused.

The police then explained to me why he needs to take £50,000 worth of equipment and that the auction will not get the full value of the debt if they only took £11k worth of goods. The police was basically explaining to me what the bailiff can take from me, why he's taking goods for a higher value. Surely this is not just keeping the peace but taking sides and representing and assisting the bailiff.

At this point we were nervous and did not trust anyone. Also if the bailiff took the goods then we will have no stock to sell over Christmas. We arranged for cash under duress and that cash was handed over to the bailiff and he signed a document that the cash given to him is in dispute and its from ABCD LIMITED.

The police were completely wrong as they were doing his job.

To save embarrassment we had to close the shop and lost alot of business.

I kept on saying to the bailiff that I can provide any documents needed. He was not interested. I showed him the new lease too.

I have also just noticed that the Letter of Authority provided is dated 2014 AND was to collect Council Tax not business rates. So the bailiff has committed a fraud? And the police allowed this?

Can we take legal action against the bailiff personally too?

Cash was taken from us under duress with wrong documents.

We have video evidence and they are aware of this. When I was taking the video the bailiff said you can't do this. The bailiff said I will start filming too. I told him we can as you are in our premises but not sure if you can though.

No breakdown of the amounts were given and the police said it is what it is you can simply appeal.

Please urgent help and advice is needed.

Thank you.

[wales01man]

Re: Business Rates

Why is the business paying council tax ? is there residential premise you own or rent ?

What has your solicitor got to say ?

[Brendon]

Re: Business Rates

Why is the business paying council tax ? is there residential premise you own or rent ?

What has your solicitor got to say ?

My solicitors had asked me to send them a warrant or court order. The bailiff told me he doesn't have either of them and doesn't need to show me anything.

This is a business rates matter yet the authority letter he showed me was for council tax. I only realised that this morning. The premises I am renting are commercial.

Regards

Brendon

[wales01man]

Re: Business Rates

Time to contact the Council could be a mistake have you not had any idea of this money allegedly owed Other LB members will advise im sure

[ploddertom]

Re: Business Rates

You need to ask the Council when a Liability Order was obtained & how much it was for + what period(s) of time it covers. What you will have seen is the Bailiffs Certificate more than likely, this gives him the power to act.

[Minoro]

Re: Business Rates

There's some important information you haven't been able to share yet on this - even though I understand you may know it's importance.

Firstly - as already commented - speak to the Local Authority concerned immediatey and find out who the Liability Order is against. What address the liability is for, and the dates the liability is for. Make sure it is you that owes the debt or not (and by you I mean you personally, or a limited company that you may or may not own/operate).

A possible senario just to explain - You may personally owe Council Tax on an old address, and if you run the shop as a sole trader then you own the goods a chattles there so a Bailiff can seize them against an old Council Tax debt.

However, it appears that you are saying a limited Company owns the goods in the shop, in which case you must prove ownership to that legal entity through invoices/recipts etc.

I think the "Council Tax" thing is bit of a red-herring and perhaps just a mistake on paperwork. But until you have the facts as to who really owes what it's diffcult to say.

In any case, firstly ensure that you write to the Bailiff Company detailing that you think you are not liable and that they should understand that the cash was handed over WITHOUT PREJUDICE (allowing you to claim for it's return to you at a later date if you prove it was received by the Bailliff in error). Write again as soon as you know who the debt is for etc. - especially if it has nothing to do with the Ltd Company he effectively visited and took cash from, and point out the errors whilst demanding the cash back. Do this by saving the letter as a PDF and emailing it so you have time and date stamps.

There's not much more I can say without knowing who the Liability Order is against and if there is a connection to you (don't post details here! Just say me personally, an old limited company connected/not connected to me or a new limited company etc). Once you have the necessary information, speak to Citizens advice who will also help with business issues and provide you with 30 mins free advice in person or by phone with a local Solicitor - as well as the Associations to whom you can make complaints about Bailiffs. Liability Orders are notouriously expensive to remove, and are very different from a County Court problems, so you do need proper legal advice eventually. Brace yourself for a possibly long fight.

The police do seem to have got it wrong here - especially if the occupying entity does not owe the money - but complaining about them is not going to get your money back so concentrate on the issues that led to this not on their lack of understading. The police rarely understand these Civil matters and mainly attend only to ensure everyones safety, rather than deal the legality of the claims and Court Enforcement. You can complain later if you like. I know of scam artists pretending to be Bailiffs chasing non-existant old debts, even with enough front to show their made up paperwork to attending police officers (that's how little the average Copper knows about this sort of thing). This is why it is IMPERATIVE you speak to the Council and find out the details of any Liabiiliuty Order IMMEDIATELY

You should also note that if you have not received any paperwork on this before, then the Courts and the Local Authoroty are entitled to serve at the last known address, so can get this far without you ever knowing about it. Crap I know, but that's the law. ie. Fight with the arguments you can legally fight with, not what you think is morally wrong. One thing is for sure - the Bailiff has illegally taken cash if the legal entity who gave it to him (ie. the Ltd company occupying the shop) is not the one that owes the money and he knows it.

[Brendon]

Re: Business Rates

You need to ask the Council when a Liability Order was obtained & how much it was for + what period(s) of time it covers. What you will have seen is the Bailiffs Certificate more than likely, this gives him the power to act.

Dear Minoro

Thank you for your detailed reply. The only connection was that I AM the director of the previous company and the new company.

I did inform the bailiff this infront of the police and he said "'He doesn't care" and started removing goods.

Thank you once again. For your great reply.

Thank you.

[Minoro]

Re: Business Rates

No problem

Sounds like you may have grounds to formally complain against the Bailiff to me - and to ask for the money back. Does the old company still exist? Is it registered at the property the Bailiff attended? If yes you're possibly on a sticky wicket, but if the old company has gone or is registered/trades from elsewhere then the Bailiff is in the wrong - but you must prove that he attended the new company premises with the right documentation. A bit of a grey area so follow my earlier advice and ring Citizens Advice - my guess is there are still some facts that need clarifying to get the right advice and it may be a bit complex for a forum.