Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

[Openlaw15]

How has Darwin's scientific ideas influenced eugenics overtly (ie openly) up to the 1970s? For instance, in terms of the Second World War, how did Eugenics or eugenicists play its or their parts to have such a monumental or tremendously poisoned affect on European minds, British minds such as the Royal Commission, Nazi Germany, and or the Americans including its corporations, minds. As a guide the themes could include legal minds ie German judges; Medicine/ doctors; holocaust; Francis Galton's human laboratory; Corporations linked to the death camps et al or sterilisation in the USA, or lobotomy; other countries indirect assistance; funding mechanisms, ie international banks.

NB: Do not use emotion - so one, more than likely, will need a strong stomach to discuss these things. It is just a chance to have your say not a place to convey any prejudiced views, which will not be tolerated. We are to approach the subject like lawyers in that we use information to persuade with ideas in terms of knowledge; it's not a place/ forum for personal attacks. Personal attack is defined as something that is stated negatively about the person who made the commentary but not the commentary itself. For instance if there is a clear intention to cause insult such as critique on the person's credulity or other undesirable effect on his or her person, it shall be construed as a personal attack.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

I said this at post number 417 of the previous thread:

"Winston Churchill was on the eugenic board at Oxford University. Eugenics came about due to Darwin's Origin of the Species, in which Darwin's mentor Thomas Malthus opined 'there's not enough food to go around', creating Eugenic Royal Commissions, The Galton human laboratory amongst many other things. Eugenics is defined as good genes as euthanasia is defined as good death. Eugenics bred by blood relationship, to 'transfer the good genes.' 'The poor were that way because of their genes, according to Eugenic theory. The idea for eugenics was that many people were born an 'economic albatross' so decided those people would have certain conditions if they were live. This led to 'fittest family competitions' which shocks the modern USA: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1796 and in the UK mental asylums etc, lies were told to families for commission received by doctors, nurses etc. Hitler borrowed the ideas from eugenics to create his own experiments using psychopathic scientists: https://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/file...867-grodin.pdf In the USA on a town hall, 'every 2 minutes this orange light flashes someone is born in to a the world a burden on society.' Women were sterilised in the USA: http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/.../themes/3.html In the Nazi trial at Nuremburg, the Nazi defence lawyer said, 'the idea came from the British and the Americans:' https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_...ls_Vol-III.pdf The German judges were signing death warrants.' They could have easily resigned. This is why all the disabled were killed in Germany, as well as other societies, owing to the elite's ideas of eugenics.

I learnt about the eugenics, Darwinism etc in detail when I studied psychology and other subjects at university; I learnt about German judges signing death warrants when I studied public law. "

[des8]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Are you trying to suggest that eugenic theories based on scientific racism automatically led to the holocaust and liquidation, sterilisation and experimentation?
I would point out that due to a flawed understanding of genetics it seemed right and proper to encourage "good" breeding and discourage "bad" breeding.
In the UK this led to "voluntary" sterilisation of some people, although undoubtedly coercion was not unknown.
However it was never legalised, and a 1931 parliamentary bill for compulsory sterilisation failed to become law.

It was a bit rich of the Germans to point a finger in an attempt to justify their crimes against humanity, where they passed laws and "legally" practiced euthanasia on the vulnerable.
The fact they were in a court of law and were fighting for their own lives had nothing to do with it.
As a matter of fact the Jews were not regarded as being genetically inferior, rather Hitler saw them as keeping themselves racially pure (as he wanted for his Aryans) and being enlightened and progressive. (at least that is what I remember from reading Mein Kampf (in translation!).


Of course eugenics is still practised today.
What is the attempt to change conditions of life (which we regard as disadvantageous) by gene therapy anything other than an attempt to "improve" what we regard as inferior genes.
I have heard of some American lesbians who were deaf appealing for a deaf sperm donor so their child would also be deaf, as they regard the condition as not being inferior.


Your study of Psychology... was it a module in some other course?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Are you trying to suggest that eugenic theories based on scientific racism automatically led to the holocaust and liquidation, sterilisation and experimentation?
I would point out that due to a flawed understanding of genetics it seemed right and proper to encourage "good" breeding and discourage "bad" breeding.
In the UK this led to "voluntary" sterilisation of some people, although undoubtedly coercion was not unknown.
However it was never legalised, and a 1931 parliamentary bill for compulsory sterilisation failed to become law.

It was a bit rich of the Germans to point a finger in an attempt to justify their crimes against humanity, where they passed laws and "legally" practiced euthanasia on the vulnerable.
The fact they were in a court of law and were fighting for their own lives had nothing to do with it.
As a matter of fact the Jews were not regarded as being genetically inferior, rather Hitler saw them as keeping themselves racially pure (as he wanted for his Aryans) and being enlightened and progressive. (at least that is what I remember from reading Mein Kampf (in translation!).


Of course eugenics is still practised today.
What is the attempt to change conditions of life (which we regard as disadvantageous) by gene therapy anything other than an attempt to "improve" what we regard as inferior genes.
I have heard of some American lesbians who were deaf appealing for a deaf sperm donor so their child would also be deaf, as they regard the condition as not being inferior.


Your study of Psychology... was it a module in some other course?

Eugenics in Europe led to Eugenics in the UK, and America. I am saying it's possible that some prominent Americans and some prominent Brits notwithstanding foreign banks have funded at least in part the Nazi science as it was eugenic in origin. The same applies to the companies in Germany, companies in the USA, perhaps even the UK too. In the USA in the state of Carolina, women were sterilised right up until the 1970s. It is too far a stretch to suggest Eugenics led to the holocaust but am sure there's a link, that it if it were not for eugenics there may not have been a holocaust, as per the Nazi defence at Nuremburg. Dangerous people such as Hitler require dangerous ideas...predominant societies develop dangerous ideas into science such as eugenics and dangerous people such as Hitler adopt or embrace those dangerous ideas owing to their own prejudices.

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

The Holocaust has many causes and contributing factors. Sadly , in my mind anyway, most of the studies on the holocaust have been written by Jews, I say sadly because this can be used as an excuse by people questioning their findings.
It is a very sad state of affairs that the judenrate in Eastern Europe were often complicit in deciding who was sent to the death camps although to be fair to them, they may have felt they had little choice and initially at least sent the infirm who were likely to have died in the ghettos anyway.

I believe a holocaust could happen again in Europe under the right circumstances.

This is not just my thought but based on study and research.

I do do not believe that eugenics played any part in the murder of the Jews.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

The Holocaust has many causes and contributing factors. Sadly , in my mind anyway, most of the studies on the holocaust have been written by Jews, I say sadly because this can be used as an excuse by people questioning their findings.
It is a very sad state of affairs that the judenrate in Eastern Europe were often complicit in deciding who was sent to the death camps although to be fair to them, they may have felt they had little choice and initially at least sent the infirm who were likely to have died in the ghettos anyway.

I believe a holocaust could happen again in Europe under the right circumstances.

This is not just my thought but based on study and research.

I do do not believe that eugenics played any part in the murder of the Jews.

I found a 2014 peer reviewed Phd dissertation (academic source) that IBM was the Nazi's biggest supplier: Love, J. W. (2014), Scientific Research and Racial Hierarchy Creation: A Return to Scientific Racism.

"Few are aware that IBM was one of the Nazi’s biggest customers. Hitler's war-drive, and plans for population surveillance and racial identification, needed information and to be organized and cataloged. This was accomplish through the use of punch cards and high-speed sorting, which was invented in the 1880’s by Herman Hollerith for the census needs of the US government. IBM soon became the Nazi’s biggest overseas customer and represents a major event in history where racism was institutionalized and support through science. The speed of the IBM machines took years off the laborious processes that were needed to implement Nazi racial policies. IBM ran the Nazis' censuses in 1933 and 1939 that were designed identify Jews. IBM technology was central to the Nazis' eugenics program designed to weed out “inferior racial stock” through forced sterilizations: ibid pp. 8 & 9, Love (2014). http://escholarship.org/uc/item/419800tv#page-1

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Clearly I have not had the time to read the thesis however from I can not see the link between the murder of the Jews and eugenics. It is a matter of record that Hitler initially shared the same goals as those of Zionism, a Jewish homeland. One idea was the east of Russia, another was Madagascar. I am sure section IV did use systems devised by IBM there seems to be good evidence that they did however des8 has asked seme incredibly relevant questions that you have not answered.

[nemesis45]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Clearly I have not had the time to read the thesis however from I can not see the link between the murder of the Jews and eugenics. It is a matter of record that Hitler initially shared the same goals as those of Zionism, a Jewish homeland. One idea was the east of Russia, another was Madagascar. I am sure section IV did use systems devised by IBM there seems to be good evidence that they did however des8 has asked seme incredibly relevant questions that you have not answered.

A Jewish " Homeland" thrust upon them by psychopathic megalomaniac as far away from his dream land of white super race as possible hardly altruistic.
Think again Bertie.

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Nemesis

I didn't say it was a good idea
Zionists fought for a Jewish homeland

Hitler wanted the Jews to be separated into a homeland

same end result, different reasons.

These are not my conclusions but the conclusions of published academics

https://archive.org/details/Destruct...ewsRaulHilberg

It it is a huge book, three volumes

[nemesis45]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Nemesis

I didn't say it was a good idea
Zionists fought for a Jewish homeland

Hitler wanted the Jews to be separated into a homeland

same end result, different reasons.

These are not my conclusions but the conclusions of published academics

https://archive.org/details/Destruct...ewsRaulHilberg

It it is a huge book, three volumes

Being Jewish and brought and being a child in the 1940's an 50's the founding of Israel was part of my education!

I feel some dislike for Jews here.

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

You may or may not be aware that it has been claimed the initial aim was to have a Jew free Europe and disturbingly , Germany was not particularly anti semetic by the standards of the time.

Time seems to have turned the final solution into the only solution ever proposed. Some historians believe this but many experts , including Hilberg do not agree.

I am am only stating opinions from people far more qualified than me, all of them Jewish which would suggest, at least to me, they are trying to be objective.

I am under no illusions as to the horrors of the holocaust after visiting Poland, which was and is anti semetic as well as Lithuania and Latvia as well as Berlin. I can not imagine how one person could inflict such pain to another human being.

The Experts quoted above all seem to agree that eugenics was not involved in the original plans for the Jews.

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Being Jewish and brought and being a child in the 1940's an 50's the founding of Israel was part of my education!

I feel some dislike for Jews here.

I am am not sure what you are trying to say, of course you will have more knowledge of the founding of Israel , I am referring to historical context, the reasons for the Holocaust which unpalatable as they may be are, as I said, opinions of scholars, far more learned than you or I will ever be.

[nemesis45]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

You may or may not be aware that it has been claimed the initial aim was to have a Jew free Europe and disturbingly , Germany was not particularly anti semetic by the standards of the time.

Time seems to have turned the final solution into the only solution ever proposed. Some historians believe this but many experts , including Hilberg do not agree.

I am am only stating opinions from people far more qualified than me, all of them Jewish which would suggest, at least to me, they are trying to be objective.

I am under no illusions as to the horrors of the holocaust after visiting Poland, which was and is anti semetic as well as Lithuania and Latvia as well as Berlin. I can not imagine how one person could inflict such pain to another human being.

The Experts quoted above all seem to agree that eugenics was not involved in the original plans for the Jews.

I am a Jew of Polish extraction with relatives who died in Poland ,.
Objectivity maybe but many no are not convinced.

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

I am not sure what your final sentence means but I am sure the causes of the Holocaust will be debated long after we are all dead.

I hope they are because it reminds us all of what can happen when good people turn a blind eye.

In in frightening news , the presidential election in Austria is to be rerun. It can not help that Britain voted for brexit as they will view this as a rise of the right in Britain. . IMO.

[Fred]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Reading some of this thread is upsetting for me.

I understand from my own view of course that a lunatic, who, should have never been allowed the power he had, decided, to do the things he did for reasons nobody really knows for sure, we do not even know if he killed himself (perhaps his best decision) for sure.

The important bit for me is, it, never happens again....................we teach our youngsters this in that we are united as human beings no matter what.