Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

[Openlaw15]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

The Holocaust has many causes and contributing factors. Sadly , in my mind anyway, most of the studies on the holocaust have been written by Jews, I say sadly because this can be used as an excuse by people questioning their findings.
It is a very sad state of affairs that the judenrate in Eastern Europe were often complicit in deciding who was sent to the death camps although to be fair to them, they may have felt they had little choice and initially at least sent the infirm who were likely to have died in the ghettos anyway.

I believe a holocaust could happen again in Europe under the right circumstances.

This is not just my thought but based on study and research.

I do do not believe that eugenics played any part in the murder of the Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockef...ation#Eugenics

[Guest]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Openlaw
That well known academic source Wikipedia although to be fair it can be a good starting point.

You were arguing that eugenics was the reason the Jews were murdered, I was refuting that. The initial aim, or so I believe, based on research, was for a judenfrei Europe not the extermination. Granted, they used quasi science , moral panic and propaganda to turn the majority against the Jews.
In addition the Nazis did not consider the Jews a race so much as a religion, they based their catagorisation on religion.

It it was a sad day when the Jews were told to wear the yellow star with pride, thezionist leader who did this later admitted it was a massive mistake as it led to further alienation and demonisation.

[des8]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

As is the way with all discussions this thread has drifted
It has gone from "how did Eugenics or eugenicists play its or their parts to have such a monumental or tremendously poisoned affect on European minds," to a discussion on the Holocaust and Hitler's aims regarding the Jews.

Regarding the second point, we should not forget that the Jew has since earliest times (cf Old Testament) held himself apart from those he has lived among. The Jews of the diaspora, due to their religion, tended not to integrate with their gentile neighbours.
To act in that manner only causes suspicion and unease among the hosts.
If things in that particular society take a turn down, the outsider becomes an easy target to blame.
Hence the pogroms against he Jews in many, many societies over the centuries.
(much a similar view is held in this country by many about the muslims and other migrants today)
The evidence is there that Hitler only wanted to make Germany free of Jews, either by removal to Madagascar (1940 proposal) or forced emigration to other countries.
The latter didn't happen because of strict American immigration rules and a reluctance for other countries to take them in!
Jewish emigration from Germany was not officially ended until Oct 1941, when the German Jewish population was less than 200,000.
"The final solution" was not started until 1941, although undesirables had been placed in concentration camps since 1933 and Jews in conquered territories were forced into ghettos.
Hitler could not have done this without the support of some, and the disregard of the majority of his nation. (and I am not ignoring the minority of brave Germans who acted against him, even sheltering Jews).
As Fred says: never ever let it happen again, but I am concerned at some of the comments heard during our referendum regarding immigrants. I fear we are only a step away sometimes. And of course it has happened in different places since WW2.

Regarding the first point, IMO eugenics didn't poison minds.
Eugenics, as posited by Galton, was based on Mendelism and Darwin.
Unfortunately Mendel had only published selected parts of his research. If it didn't fit his ideas, he omitted it!
So we had (what is now realised) a faulty and incomplete view of genetics, which when linked with Darwins theory of evolution and termed "survival of the fittest" by Spencer becomes eugenics.
The proponents of those ideas only suggested that the best breed and others be discouraged, and in view of the limited knowledge of the time that was probably not unreasonable.
It was not until 1920s that ideas of forcibly implementing those ideas by sterilisation were adopted in various places.
That was a desire to control others, and use eugenics to justify that control.
Eugenics of itself is not poisonous. It looks to improve.
Today we still look to the ideals of eugenics (think about gene therapy or DNA manipulation to remove genetic conditions).. is that considered poisonous?


Taken long time to write this post as I just had to watch THAT game, altho' I prefer rugby!

[charitynjw]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

I have read reports that suggest as many as 11 million people may have died in WW2 concentration camps.

Also, they were used during the Boer War, & have been utilised ever since, notably in Latin America, N Korea, Cambodia etc.

The USA used them, also Bosnia.

& Russia (gulags) & China (Cultural Revolution).

So, not a 'one-off', & not a 'lesson learned', I fear.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Eugenics: Nazis; the UK, USA, Europe

Openlaw
That well known academic source Wikipedia although to be fair it can be a good starting point.

You were arguing that eugenics was the reason the Jews were murdered, I was refuting that. The initial aim, or so I believe, based on research, was for a judenfrei Europe not the extermination. Granted, they used quasi science , moral panic and propaganda to turn the majority against the Jews.
In addition the Nazis did not consider the Jews a race so much as a religion, they based their catagorisation on religion.

It it was a sad day when the Jews were told to wear the yellow star with pride, thezionist leader who did this later admitted it was a massive mistake as it led to further alienation and demonisation.

My point is though Eugenics or eugenicist poisonous ideas were not just about the holocaust, ie the Jews, as eugenic practice was world wide, From Europe to Africa, to South America. It was therefore a world-wide phenomena and would be incredible to suggest that many corporations in many countries did not financially contribute to it. These eugenic person were still poisonous in mind up to the 1970s. The first EU Treaty was signed around 1957 so I find it difficult to believe that post war they just had a change of mind and became better people, who no longer spread hate to others. Propaganda is what the Americans did to get the US soldier to fight the Japanese, labelling the Japs as ape-like, or not human. However, when the entire world virtually practices eugenics well past 2nd world war in the open, it's gone beyond propaganda as it was practice no less. Up to the 2nd world war, 60, 000 US citizens were involuntary sterilised; in Nazi Germany 400,000 were involuntary sterilised.