EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

[Fred]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079

Looks like the "beeb" HYS brigade are not happy.

approx 3 to 1 to leave up to now

[leclerc]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

I totally disagree, the almost daily interference from over paid EU " judges " in day to day "domestic " legal system is
wrong and cannot possibly be continued.

The EU courts are over turning our judges ruling on far too many matters that they have no business have their snotty noses in.
The UK can't even deport foreign terrorists, rapists, murderers, thieves and hate mongers without the idiots in the EU supporting
the criminals Uman Rites.

If you can't understand that it has Nothing to do with companies etc. here it is interference in our judicial system that is
unwanted and un warranted you have an odd view of the plain facts.

I think you are talking about the European Court of Human Rights which although member states of the EU must ascribe to prior to membership is not actually a function of the EU so a NO vote will not change our obligation to that considering we are one of the founders of that institution from its inception.

We deported supposedly one terrorist who was then found NOT GUILTY of the offence that he was indicted for but then again we revoked his "right to remain" so he didn't come back.

I am voting OUT.
I studied European Studies at Uni and benefitted from ERASMUS grants as a student. It was my belief that the European Union was a good thing but I did not agree with monetary union for the UK. I think we will draw from our own personal experiences in regards to the benefits of EU migration but in a time of austerity where there is no housing for people who were born and raised here(yet EU migrants appears to get the rub of the green over people from here) then perhaps had we been in an economic boom we might have thought differently, my vote is to get out. I do not see the benefits of membership with the EU that could not be negotiated separately. Furthermore, I don't like the fact that people of power from other countries are telling me how I am supposed to feel towards them.
I may sound uneducated in my reasoning but my vote WILL be OUT in June.

[Noah]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

What many people don't know and clearly the the brigade who shout about Human Rights are at least two fold
1) As quite rightly pointed out we are one of the original signatories of ECHR so in or out makes no difference
2) Most of the claims that the right wing press make are incomplete at best and at worst just propaganda. In many cases where human rights are concerned there are caveats
An example
Man A has come here and is in a relationship with a child, is convicted of a crime and there are moves to deport
he claims human rights , right to a family life

Ok so if there is nothing stopping partner and child moving back to the country of origin in a safe manner , the claim should fail

A homosexual man moves here from Iran , starts a relationship with another man and the claim for asylum is rejected because after all they only hang homosexuals in Iran, nowt wrong with that
He claims a right to a family life
Because if his partner and him were to move to Iran they would be in extreme danger , then the claim should succeed
However if that man ( a muslim) also had citizenship of Israel then he would be quite safe moving to Israel - I know the odds of a Muslim man holding dual Iranian /Israli citizenship is remote but it was an example

Surely no one with an ounce of humanity would believe that sending someone back to a country where they will be in real mortal danger would agree

By the way instead of homosexual I could have used Tuttsi man during the Rwandan genocide or a Tamil man/woman back to Sri Lanka

There are few people alive now who will remember it ( I certainly don't) but the type of moral panic and propaganda that we are now being attacked with seems reminiscent of the last days of the Weimar Republic and if you don't believe that can happen again I can list a few interesting books that may change your mind, written by people with far greater expertise than me

[enaid]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Mr Johnson is expected to formally announce his decision to align with the 'leave' camp against the Prime Minister on Sunday evening.
This will be interesting to hear his reasons although not 100% as yet.

So up to now the

Ins say, safer,stronger and better off, how and why?

Outs say freer, fairer and better, how and why?

These are the questions the people who it matters to, need answers to in plain and simple terms.

Thousands of jobs would go, which jobs and exactly why?

Safer in what way? being in the EU does that mean we are at less risk of being attacked by anything or anyone?

Better off, exactly who would be better off? we know who the better off are at the moment as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, would that change?

[Noah]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Well
To answer some of your questions, we are an odd country in that we once really did rule the world and now we are a relatively minor player. As a part of the EU we supposedly have equal say with all the other member states however we also have the collective might of the whole EU around us when it comes to economic and physical security.
Staying in the EU you have easy access to huge markets and again as a trading bloc the we have much greater clout when it comes to securing trade deals or preventing tariffs with other countries
It would be one thing for the US to put in place huge import tariffs against one state who would probably retaliate with their own tariffs however if the whole EU market effectively blocked trade with the U.S. then the U.S would suffer huge hardship in its economy.
I use the US as an example because it has been the world power however , as is increasingly happening other countries such as China , India and some South American countries are claiming their place on the world economic stage

[MIKE770]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

not forgetting Visa fees to go on holiday if we were out.

Most Far eastern countries have a similar EEU system.

[Noah]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Oh I can see it now
The EHIC card would become invalid so that holiday insurance would go through the roof
Visas to go to Spain or France

From a selfish point of view I think most people would be worse off
AND if they think the money paid to the EU would be returned to their pockets I believe they are sadly mistaken

On the + side the Scots would bugger off and we could empty Corby out and turn it into a ghost town

[Openlaw15]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

I totally disagree, the almost daily interference from over paid EU " judges " in day to day "domestic " legal system is
wrong and cannot possibly be continued.

The EU courts are over turning our judges ruling on far too many matters that they have no business have their snotty noses in.
The UK can't even deport foreign terrorists, rapists, murderers, thieves and hate mongers without the idiots in the EU supporting
the criminals Uman Rites.

If you can't understand that it has Nothing to do with companies etc. here it is interference in our judicial system that is
unwanted and un warranted you have an odd view of the plain facts.

EU law only applies to EU areas in the UK. Parliament laws (ie statutes/ common law) are not affected mainly. EU judges (ECJ) only have authority where the jurisdiction is EU competence. It is about the single market ie the trade relationships between the 28 EU member states. So, EU generally does not impact on family law, criminal law, property law, contract law etc, except if it relates specifically to an EU competence, ie competition law or some form of discrimination between one member state's citizen whilst working in another member state. However, the payment of DWP (state) benefits is different. This is what the David Cameron is negotiating, a cap on welfare benefits, I believe applicable from 2020. I have came across EU case law for these types of benefits. Ordinarily, any EU Treaty, ECJ Court decision, Regulation, is immediately applicable law in all EU member states. So, unless the current Treaties terms are amended, or any relevant Regulation is amended, or the EU Commission or the Council of Europe amend the substantive EU law, I do not know how David Cameron as the member state of the UK can simply avoid the law, unless the UK Parliament were to repeal the European Communities Act 1972. So, even after the public referendum unless Parl. repeals said Act the UK Government (Executive) cannot alter EU without Parliament's authority.

EU and human rights are two different entities. The one you mean is European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) wherein the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) have legal authority, since the incorporation of the ECHR Articles in the Human Rights' Act 1998. If you were to read those terrorist cases, in general, you'll likely see important legal concepts that are not present in the sensationalised media hyped head-lines/ stories.

There could be overlap with the EU and ECHR I agree, as the EU does have competence in this area in some situations depending whether it's an EU market matter or human rights' claim per se.

[enaid]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Because of people being put off Turkey as a holiday choice Spain is upping it's prices as we speak, I am sure Spain needs our tourism trade and it would be silly to deter us.
On the EHIC card and I know this as fact elderly people who have accidents or become ill in Spain have been made to hand over their debit/credit card before even mention of the EHIC. That wouldn't and couldn't happen here and neither it should it there if we are equal.

[Openlaw15]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

not forgetting Visa fees to go on holiday if we were out.

Most Far eastern countries have a similar EEU system.

Well travel from any EU member state is cheaper, so for holidays to affected EU destinations they will be cheaper. This likely owes to not paying taxes as you would were you to travel outside EU. This is why the budget airlines are able to offer the prices they do.

[Openlaw15]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Because of people being put off Turkey as a holiday choice Spain is upping it's prices as we speak, I am sure Spain needs our tourism trade and it would be silly to deter us.
On the EHIC card and I know this as fact elderly people who have accidents or become ill in Spain have been made to hand over their debit/credit card before even mention of the EHIC. That wouldn't and couldn't happen here and neither it should it there if we are equal.

Spain as an economy needs to pay its creditors, ie the International Monetary Fund, so it's a balancing act, taking advantage of the holidaying consumer market to stay afloat instead of it, as a country, going bankrupt; but not so much as to deter tourists from its shores. If Spain were to do the latter it may deter tourists in general in the short term but for those who enjoy holidaying there as long as the prices are not too steep they will likely continue holidaying there. It will however provide Spain opportunities to become more solvent to pay its creditors and therein reduce prices once its in a better economic state. What option does it have tax its own citizens more or raise the interest rates? It like a Robin Hood thing, taking from the richer country for the poorer country.

[nemesis45]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

The UK has " given away " far too much to the EU all areas of UK law are at risk appeals on spurious uman rites for criminal / terrorists/ illegal immigrants have take a front seat so that the UK cannot deport the spreaders of hatred for our customs and our way of life.
A connected " story " in the news about an elderly South African woman who lives on her pension, and is supported by a relative with who she lives is threatened with deportation, while a family of alleged refugees (8 children) is said to be " humiliated " as they have been moved from a £2 million to on worth only £1.3 million they have made no contribution of any sort in the UK.
As one commentator said the SA lady is just too white for getting help here.

The rather over complicated EU biased in #post 38 I think shows how much some have been brain washed and now believe being in the EU is the only way the UK can survive,

I believe it is the exact opposite the EU will destroy our heritage and our identity as a Sovereign Nation. My guess is that the " prominent " politicians push for the UK to stay in the EU are really just doing so in the hope of landing some over paid ( unelected) job with a huge pension as Kinochio and his wife did.

[Noah]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

Enaid

The thing about the Ehic card is that is provides for state provision however what is happening in Spain is that people are being see privately . If they are taken to hospital they are taken to a private one as opposed to a state one.

It is not just happening to old people and I am not sure that playing the game of that wouldn't happen here is really not helpful

As for Spanish tourist areas increasing their prices , well that is how Capitalism works, supply and demand . If supply outstrips demand prices drop if the other way round they increase

If you owned a hotel that you could fill at £50 a night but you could also fill at £100 per night because there was no competition, what would you do
I do not like it but that is how it works

A few years ago , the former Yugoslavia was a cheap place to go, now have you seen the prices to visit Croatia and particularly Dubrovnik

On the other hand look at Ukraine
It was cheap to go before but since the invasion of crimea and the loss of the Russian tourists who made up the bulk of their trade prices have dropped . You can now get a reasonable hotel room in Kiev ( and I mean reasonable by their standards not by western luxury standards) for £20 a night per room.
What do you need in a hotel room, clean , fresh bedding and a decent shower - a fridge helps to keep the vodka cold which is £4 a litre :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Noah]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

The UK has " given away " far too much to the EU all areas of UK law are at risk appeals on spurious uman rites for criminal / terrorists/ illegal immigrants have take a front seat so that the UK cannot deport the spreaders of hatred for our customs and our way of life.
A connected " story " in the news about an elderly South African woman who lives on her pension, and is supported by a relative with who she lives is threatened with deportation, while a family of alleged refugees (8 children) is said to be " humiliated " as they have been moved from a £2 million to on worth only £1.3 million they have made no contribution of any sort in the UK.
As one commentator said the SA lady is just too white for getting help here.

The rather over complicated EU biased in #post 38 I think shows how much some have been brain washed and now believe being in the EU is the only way the UK can survive,

I believe it is the exact opposite the EU will destroy our heritage and our identity as a Sovereign Nation. My guess is that the " prominent " politicians push for the UK to stay in the EU are really just doing so in the hope of landing some over paid ( unelected) job with a huge pension as Kinochio and his wife did.

I actually don't think t shows bias , what it does show is that you have fallen for the right wing press and their agenda . You have been suckered into the moral panic that could possibly destroy the nation just as it has done to countries before. Look at the war in the former Yugoslavia which probably should never have been a country in the first place but there you go, thats another debate.

Openlaw is essentially correct
You are confusing ECHR with the EU. Even if we leave the EU the ECHR will still apply, god even if we get rid of the HRA it will still apply and we were one of the founding members

[Amethyst]

Re: EU: - IN or OUT ?? and WHY ??

I do think the country will surprise people again by its common sense, just as it did at the last election. The 'Outs' may shout louder throughout the next four months but common sense will prevail.