How do you feel about Conscription ?

[Inca]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Oh I'm really setting myself up for a bashing here,,but I happen to agree with the death penalty too.What I don't agree with is the long drawn out appeals process that goes along with it.
There are prisoners clogging up our jails who have been found guilty of the most horrific crimes (and in a lot of cases have admitted it) who serve no useful purpose on this Earth,so why hang on to them?Bish bash bosh,,quick drip,,job done. IMHO
(now dives under wardrobe with full body armour and pith helmet on)msl:

[Sapphire]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

I totally agree with you, now move over and make room for one more.

[enquirer]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

If anyone's going to start WW3, it'll be rogue CIA agents.

They'll be quite legitimate. It's just that they'll be pretending to be someone else.

[Inca]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

[QUOTE=sapphire;295992]I totally agree with you, now move over and make room for one more.[/QUOTE

<<passes Sapphy spare pith helmet...got a feeling it might get busy under this wardrobe msl:

[teaboy2]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Personally i am against conscription. The reason being is that i believe people should be allowed to make their own choices and not be forced to join the armed forces where they could end up fighting in real conflict against their wishes and some even losing their lifes in a war they never really wanted to be there fighting but where forced too under conscription.

There are alternative ways of getting youngsters of the streets and in to a trade, such as inviting them to take part in workshops, or doing vouluntary work, put them on college courses - Off course some will argue that they don't want, nor do they see why their hard earned taxes that they have paid should go to covering that cost! But then my answer to that is - Well where do you think the money comes from to pay them if they were conscripts in the army!

[Sapphire]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

When I started this thread I was talking about the youngsters getting training and self respect, no way would I suggest that they be sent to war unless they volunteered to do so. All I'm thinking of is getting them off the streets and doing something useful with their lives instead of wasting their time hanging on street corners getting ****ered on cheap booze and pills, surely that's a better option for them.

[teaboy2]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

I undestand that sapphy, but my point is, if conscription was brought back, and if something did kick off then they is always a real risk the government will send conscripts to fight. Just like they did in both world wars. Off course am not saying any conflict on that scale will happen, but when there cutting back on troop levels and increasing the personnel of the TA, when the forces are already overstretched. And as they are now planning to send troops to Syria, then if we end up in war with syria which is a real possability if they send troops their, then if we had conscripts the government wouldn't think twice about sending them to fight. And thats the main problem with conscription.

The reasons you suggested it, can all be achieved by other means. Also don't forget its not just younsters that are on the street or out of work, theirs fully grown adults of all ages too, and in most cases they both adults and youngsters want to have a job but their simply is not enough jobs for everyone at the moment. So conscription for just the youngster would be unfair and would do nothing to solve the real course of the reason why they are on the streets and out of work!

Also just because some youngsters are yobs, troublemakers, criminals or in gangs, the majority are law abiding and respectful, but because of the actions of the minority the majority are painted with the same brush, and are look down upon and frown at, just because of their age and the actions of the minority in the same age group. A lot of youngster are getting fed up off being discriminated against by older people, just because they happen to be young, can't find work (due to no jobs available), can't afford tuition fees to go to university etc. Why should we punish the majority of youngsters by forcing conscription on them against their wishes, just because of the way we view youngsters as a result of the minority of youngsters actions.

I myself am only 31, so not long ago i was in the age group that we deem as youngsters, i suffered the very same prejudice and discrimination from older people, all because of the actions of some idiots in the same age group. Older people would be wary of me when walking down the street after dark, or in the pub when i tried to stike up conversation. All because i was a youngster and other people in my age group had given all people in my age group a bad name. Most peoples views about youngsters is nothing but ageism.

So whilst your intention is for them to be conscripted not to fight but to learn trades etc, there are over ways of having youngsters learning trades, and getting self respect. In fact one way of having have some self respect for themselves is for the older generations to learn to start having and showing respect towards them and to stop treating them like they are kids and can do nothing but wrong. In fact in my exerience, some of the older generations need to do a bit of learning on self respect too.

Also how would conscription be implemented as it would have to be Mandatory and what about those youngsters already in work? Count how many youngsters are working in the supermarket next time you do your shopping, or how many younsgters you see working in the highstreet shops next time you visit the highstreet, then count how many older people work at supermarket and in high street shops - You'd probably be surprised by the result! So would it be right to take them away from their jobs and force conscription on them. Would it be right to force conscription on those unemployed, but more importantly, would it be right to take them away from their families, their homes as conscription would mean staying on an army base miles from home!

[Sapphire]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Thanks for that post teaboy I think you've put your point over very well and I fully take on board what you say about ageism, so here we are at a crossroads now, what do we do about it, a lot of the older people think a lot of the younger ones are lazy and feckless, in the same time the younger people think the 'oldies' should step down from the jobs and let the newer ones in.
Catch 22 I think.

[CleverClogs]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

my personal feelings are that its about time we had it in some form or another, it would get the youngsters off the streets, teach them a trade

Is there really a dearth of properly trained killers?

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

My ex had to do National Service in S.A.

He came out with nightmares, PTSD and a habit of sleeping with a knife under his pillow!

But he said, it taught him respect, time keeping, and respect for his elders. Personally I think that as a general idea it will relight a sense of national pride, but will the powers that be allow patriotisum, or will that be deemed wrong by Europe??

[teaboy2]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Thanks for that post teaboy I think you've put your point over very well and I fully take on board what you say about ageism, so here we are at a crossroads now, what do we do about it, a lot of the older people think a lot of the younger ones are lazy and feckless, in the same time the younger people think the 'oldies' should step down from the jobs and let the newer ones in.
Catch 22 I think.

Your welcome Sapphy.

Indeed it is a catch 22 situation, but when you think about it. with a little effort by the older generation (politicians mainly) things can be changed, and youngsters can have the opurtunity to be and to do what they want in life as a career, professional or business owner like myself. Hell believe me, there is very little government help thats actually worthwhile. Only help that was offered to me was by the princes trust and some extra guideance from a private firm that help people set up new enterpises. Problem is the help given is just basic, such as making a buisness plan and about VAT and NI, getting funding (although small start up loans are given, they are no where near what is actually needed) was near impossible and even worse now for youngsters, compared to those that are older. They are really becoming the lost generation, not because of their own actions or inaction, but because of the way the older generations look down on them and put them down. All youngsters want is to be treated equally. Hell when i applied for bank loans to help start my business i was refused (this is before i had any defaults which only occured just before i launched my business) even though older people with worser credit ratings then me were being accept for even larger sums then i was asking to loan.

Basically if people volunteered to teach youngsters a trade, or more firms took on apprenticeships, or colleges did governemt founded full time apprenticeships, or they allowed jobseekers to take up full time college courses without having their job seekers stopped then more youngster would be off the streets, learning a trade or working towards getting the qualifications they need to get the career they always wanted. Off course it will cost tax payers money, but the future benefits would be very beneficial to not just the tax payer, but a better, bigger and stronger economy more people paying taxes, and less people on the dole, but greating a much better country for the next upcoming generation to live in!

The problem we have is people want to see this happen, but can't be arsed to do anything to make it happen and instead rely on others to do it.

[Inca]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Every generation has 'suffered' ageism,,it's nothing new.I remember being looked down on (or so I thought) because of the way I did or did not dress etc.My older siblings were the generation of 'flower power' 'free love' 'peace'..and they were the ones who thought my age group were 'weird'!!! To me,they were part of the potsmoking longhaired hippy oiks who had no right to stand in judgement of me in my 'Bay City Rollers' half mast trousers,and my undying love for Donny Osmond.(and no,they didn't smoke pot as far as I know).
BUT my parents absolutely droned into us that once we decided to finish full time education we were expected to get a job,preferably one of our choice,but when our choice wasn't available then any job would have to do.We weren't even allowed to THINK of a life on the dole,dossing round the streets,nothing to get up for and hanging around with our mates till all hours cos we were part of the 'younger generation'.It did us no harm,in fact we all had part time jobs,mine was in a KFC!(and I went to a very exclusive school).
Noone is intimating that we should send our youth off to war,to get shot at through no choice of their own but I personally think that a lot of them could do with the discipline and sense of purpose of joining something that teaches them a trade and keeps them off the streets and shows them that a life on benefits churning out children isn't all that they get to show for their time on this planet.

[teaboy2]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

But inca - They can be taught a trade and self respect and kept of the street without the need to bring back national service or conscription. Its just all those that want to see it happen, are not prepared to do anything about it and want to pass the problem to someone else or expect someone else to sort it out.

[Inca]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

Sadly,,and this has spanned the generations too,,unless certain elements of society are led by the nose and herded like sheep (ie MADE to do something) they will sit on their arses and continue perpetuating the belief that they are being picked on by the older generation and should get shed loads of dosh for the insult.

[Sapphire]

Re: How do you feel about Conscription ?

I'm an employer, we've tried to take on a youngster in the hope of training them up and giving them a good job, you get hundreds of replies to the adverts and then you sit down a shift through them, we always insist on a cv and handwritten covering letter.... then you find the following

The writing is so bad you can't decipher it.
The cv's are badly written
You get statements like 'I want to be a footballer/beautician/film star but I'm willing to work in an office until I find my ideal job'
or
'I am really good a mucking things up and will do so at every opportunity if you employ me'
then if you find a half decent candidate, you ask them to come for an interview they are either late, slovenly, dirty, unkempt or just don't bother turning up at all, so after all that its no wonder the older ones among us are more valued in the workplace.

Then there's the wage situation, we always pay over the minimum but when training of course its not as high as a trained person, the young ones don't want to gain the experience and wait for a raise.