Learning Law

[PinkSalad]

I'm not sure where to put this question.

If I wanted to learn some law, not a degree, just some occasional learning now and again, to learn. What resources are available out there for this, that are hopefully free or cheap?

I have seen some learning places online, but I have no idea how credible they are. If I buy a law book I don't want to feel lost, I need to 'feel' my progress. I need something structured and someone (even if I have to pay them) to ask questions about my learned knowledge.

[samsmoot]

What kind of law? There's a lot of law - criminal, civil and administrative for a start. I tried learning English law history but that was dead boring. Good place to start though - get a book from the library.

The only way I have learned law is by doing it. Having said that I've read a bit about copyright law, as that does interest me.

The thing is with law, knowledge of it isn't always good enough by itself. Inventiveness is often called for. That's why legal professionals can often be easily defeated by someone with a clue: legal professionals are not usually required to be inventive, and seldom encounter inventive opposition. Reading will not be able to teach you how law should actually be done unless you do that type of law as a job.

You could read every law book going, have it all in your head, and expect to therefore have knowledge of law. But law isn't an abstract concept - it's people doing stuff. It would be like reading about soccer and expecting you can therefore play football. Unless you actually do some law you will not know what it really entails. What it entails in the abstract does not always align with what it entails in practice.

So, for example, a judge could deem a document to have been produced on a certain date by its position in the bundle. You would not have been expecting that if you had actual evidence to the contrary. The law says one thing, the reality may be different - and that's what counts at the end of the day.

And if your criminal record is brought up during a trial, you wouldn't have been expecting that either from what you will have read.

You will find nothing in any law book which suggests that you should make a civil claim in the County Court against a Social Security Tribunal's court clerk, but it might be the correct thing to do.

No solicitor would suggest a Part 8 claim against the DWP over unlawful benefit deductions. One said it wasn't possible, directly after I informed them that such a claim resulted in a win.

I love disdainful and arrogant legal professionals because it feels really good when they get destroyed.

If I were you I would start taking an interest in topical subjects with a legal angle, Covid for instance. Maybe try and figure out if lockdowns were legal. Maybe look into the rights of those adversely affected by vaccines. You could see what the WHO are up to and how it may affect UK citizens.

On top of examining those law subjects that interest you, look for opportunities to do some law. If you don't have any legal issues yourself, maybe consider providing help or advice to anyone who needs it. Family or friends with problems with eBay or Amazon; motorists who run into issues; those on benefit; people who get fines for littering and so on.

If I have a legal issue to solve I might first go online and find a short write-up - solicitor firms often publish very useful information on legal issues.Then I might check out primary legislation. I may then look at the rules and procedures. I might find a template on Lexis Nexis, if they allow me to. I will go from knowing zero about the subject to having a grasp of the basics within a day or two. Once I know what's involved I can start formulating what needs to be said.

I think you should start learning law in order to do something with it as opposed to just having it in your head.

[Pezza54]

Have a look at lawteacher.net
Plenty of lectures to read on different topics and see what interests you the most.

[PinkSalad]

Have a look at lawteacher.net
Plenty of lectures to read on different topics and see what interests you the most.

Hello,

Yes, I have looked at this website previously, this looked to me like it was geared towards student learning rather than the public in general. Is there something I'm not seeing in it, that you can see?

[PinkSalad]

What kind of law?

Oh, people who get fined for littering, I wish that would happen in my area.

I'm not completely alien to parts of the law, but I do recognise there is a lack of teaching/communication to the public as a whole beyond the student/teacher/lecturer route.

Probate is of significant interest right now with a current family situation. I would like to learn DWP law to help some people, in particular pensioners (on the lowest income), who have been significantly short-changed in recent years through a sneaky government move. Insolvency law, Company law (upgrade my understanding), and as much law as I'm willing to learn. I would be interested to know any laws surrounding business grant funding or that might just be contract law? Business grant funding is of interest to me, it's definitely a match that strikes my fire.

Similar to what you've mentioned, I've helped some people out in the past with some issues and that creates personal learning. I would just love to have someone present issues to me and for me to state how they should be addressed alongside the law. Then again, as you know, it's not always as straightforward as that, I don't want to be dis-repectful to solicitors as I understand they are human beings, although, I'd like to be able to spot when they are not doing their best by their client over their personal gain. I feel I'm personally running into this issue at the present time. I'm not a client, I'm a beneficiary.

The problem we are having at the current time, there is an outstanding loan due to my mother's estate, and the solicitor has been chasing it but wants interest. I know, my parent didn't want any interest, and they stated this to this same solicitor/Executor when asked if they wanted interest and my parent said no, just the loan money.

However, the interest payment is being disputed by the recipient of the loan, but they are happy to pay the loan amount agreed payable on death. The Executor looks like they are trying to pursue the court for this payment and have said the interest will go towards the court costs. As far as I know, court costs can be expensive and should be avoided at all costs. We are happy to wipe the interest in return for the loan money, which isn't really that much. I do think the solicitor will cost us so much more chasing it than what will be gained or matched. I don't know what to do. Do you have any ideas?

[samsmoot]

No ideas at the moment as I have only just read your post.

Just wanted to say thanks for clarifying for now, and make a quick comment:

Despite my hostility to legal professionals in general, and solicitors and barristers in particular, I'm not convinced they are totally useless. Sometimes they are probably needed. Not sure about them being needed on this occasion, but I promise I will try and gain a clear understanding of what's going on with this loan/estate issue, and then I may have some input for you. Hopefully some other member will chip in - this isn't a familiar subject to me.

It sounds like you are on the right track as far as learning law goes - I will also get back to you on the subjects mentioned in the first part of your post within a day or two.

'DWP law' was my speciality, BTW. It is very, very interesting! And DWP legal representatives are something else. I may not like how they sometimes behave, but I have to respect their tenacity. They always proceed with a 'win at all costs' attitude, which is often at odds with the facts and the likelihood of success. But this is somewhat understandable - their job entails 'protecting the public purse', and they do take this as seriously as anyone could. They don't lack competence - it can look that way - it's the sheer mentality of the job taking control of their course of action, and they will never admit defeat. I've not seen it happen yet. Most people, lucky for them, won't encounter solicitors and barristers from the DWP, as most DWP issues are dealt with under the social security rules and related appeals courts. If you wanted to toughen yourself up, picking a fight with these guys would be a good place to start.

[samsmoot]

...the solicitor has been chasing it but wants interest. I know, my parent didn't want any interest, and they stated this to this same solicitor/Executor...So the solicitor and executor are one and the same, is my understanding.

...The Executor looks like they are trying to pursue the court I don't understand this bit - how exactly is the court being pursued? for this payment and have said the interest will go towards the court costs.

...As far as I know, court costs can be expensive and should be avoided at all costs. Again, I'm not clear on what's going on - is court just for the interest?

...We are happy to wipe the interest in return for the loan money, which isn't really that much. I do think the solicitor will cost us so much more You mean the solicitor/executor?

If the loan isn't much, perhaps court action will eat up costs. And probably IS best avoided. I think it would be a good idea to look into the obligations of an executor, and what they can or should do when administering an estate. My first thought would be to consider getting another solicitor, but if they are also the executor - well, I don;t know. I think futher clarification would help.

[samsmoot]

...people who get fined for littering, I wish that would happen in my area. Many things can go wrong with tickets for littering or for fare dodging and so on. Boxes needing ticking may not have gotten ticked, or the tickets/forms are otherwise incomplete or in error in some way. Incompetence is on the rise, so perhaps more chance these days than ever to find fault in legal documents.

...I'm not completely alien to parts of the law, but I do recognise there is a lack of teaching/communication to the public as a whole beyond the student/teacher/lecturer route. Totally agree. It's kind of bizarre when you really think about it. But when you really, really think about it, it makes sense. Or maybe only to me.

...Probate...I looked into this a tiny bit recently. I learned that it can take time to sort things out. Thank you Legal Beagles members for educating me on this!

...I would like to learn DWP law to help some people, in particular pensioners (on the lowest income), who have been significantly short-changed in recent years through a sneaky government move. I would also like you to learn DWP law to help people! You have the primary legislation, you have the 'secondary' legislation, which is the the rules set by the Secretary of State under the primary legislation. There was the 'Blue volumes', I think they were called, containing most of what you need to know about Social Security. You have parliamentary committee meetings and similar as well - older ones as well as more recent ones can be worth going through for some insight into how and why things are the way they are or will be. There will be guidance notes and suchlike for how the DWP should deal with certain issues. You may, for example, find a brief on 'Third-party deductions', which would explain how the law should be applied by the DWP for benefit deductions, with refences to legislation and rules made under it. It isn't law, but could be taken to be 'as good as the law' when it's to your benefit, and 'disputable' when it's not.. And, of course, the appeals system is worth looking at to see how a dispute with the DWP might progress: Mandatory Decision/ Appeal/ Upper Chamber Appeal/ Judicial Review etc. - or whatever it might be for the issue in question.

The DWP and its legislative framework themselves should be taken to be gospel - unchallengeable. But each decision made under the legislation can be challenged, often successfully.

..Insolvency law, Company law (upgrade my understanding), and as much law as I'm willing to learn. I would be interested to know any laws surrounding business grant funding or that might just be contract law? Business grant funding is of interest to me, it's definitely a match that strikes my fire. Sorry - I have nothing to say (for a change).

Similar to what you've mentioned, I've helped some people out in the past with some issues and that creates personal learning. Brilliant!

I would just love to have someone present issues to me and for me to state how they should be addressed alongside the law.
I have a practical legal issue which needs resolving. About data protection and privacy/ internet rights if you are interested.

Cheers!

[PinkSalad]

..

Yes, the Solicitor and Executor are the same person.


The solicitor is pressing for interest on the loan, the debtor is disputing the interest (rightly so) therefore it will go to court if it's not paid by a certain deadline. I personally believe the solicitor knows the debtor would dispute the interest and that probably happens a lot and that forces the case to court. If it goes to court, it will cost us a lot more money than the interest on the loan, not that the solicitor worded it like that. They worded it making it sound like the interest would offset court costs in a round-about way. Therefore, it all sounds very positive, but there is nothing positive about taking this silly loan (that's how I'm feeling about it right now) to court.

We don't really know if the court is just for the interest, as the solicitor doesn't really tell us. The debtor is obviously not paying any of it, as they are disputing the debt. I don't trust that debtor's solicitor either. I believe they are creating work for themselves, but I could be wrong.

To answer your other question, yes, solicitor/executor.

It costs thousands to remove an Executor, therefore they have it all stitched up, and they've organised everything from beginning to end. I find it quite shocking they get so much control. Preparing my parents, and partner Will, plus they constructed the loan, and we don't have the terms of the loan, they do. I find it quite disgusting that one person gets such control over family money. I don't think my parent realised this and, of course, it may have been 'sold' to them how great this was to have a solicitor looking after their estate once they had died.

Estate sounds very posh, doesn't it? Nothing major to shout about.with our err estate.

I have a couple of threads here if you want to have a look? https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...orums/scotland

I'll get back to you on the rest later, my eyes are closing over now.

[samsmoot]

I have a couple of threads here if you want to have a look? https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...orums/scotland

I had a quick look and saw the responses made by other members, and I have nothing of a legal nature to add, as I know next to nothing on this particular topic.

You pose the theory that solicitors may have made work/are making work for themselves, but admit to the possibility of this theory being erroneous. Whether or not that is true, it may be beyond your control and completely permissible. If a solicitor can do something in a certain way which happens to optimise their earnings, they are either entitled to do it or not under their rules of conduct, are they not? Are they following them? And if not, what's the thing to do about it, according to the rules? Should they regularly provide updates and/or document copies? Are they required to stick to any timescale? Are they even required to speak to you? These are the obvious questions which come to mind.

But at the end of the day, these things take time, apparently, and will entail legal fees, obvioulsy. It's not that I wouldn't begrudge a solicitor getting a big slice of the pie for not much/ unnecessary work, it's that it looks to be '...all stitched up...', as you suggested above. Stretching out some work sometimes is pretty normal in paid occupations in any case. Spending more time on an easy job in order to avoid starting a more difficult one, or to fill up time until your preferred clocking-off time, wouldn't be highly unusual things to do in some occupations. But there are limits, and most of us, including solicitors, have a good idea of what they are and therefore know how far they can push things.

My best 'advice' would be to gain an understanding of the relevant rules and regulations etc, and follow any procedures which you can - such as obtaining documents, if they are allowed to be obtained. Or attending court, if you can or will find useful/relevant. Basically, do what you are able to, but perhaps accept that the administration of an estate can involve much time and legal costs, both of which may be out of your hands.

[atticus]

There are numerous blogs written by lawyers about their specialist areas, examples being Nearly Legal for housing law and Civil Litigation Brief, which is about civil litigation! Finding and reading such blogs may be a route to enlightenment.

[PinkSalad]

samsmoot Sorry for the delay, so much going on this year that it's been a nightmare just finding the time to see too much else. Thank you, things have now all been finalised with the solicitor.

I do hope to be a lot more active on here once I'm better sorted, and get my head into legal things, just alot going on right now.

[PinkSalad]

There are numerous blogs written by lawyers about their specialist areas, examples being Nearly Legal for housing law and Civil Litigation Brief, which is about civil litigation! Finding and reading such blogs may be a route to enlightenment.

Any blogs on banks withholding people's money under AML laws? The rights of the people who are being mistreated? How intrusive are the banks allowed to be under the guise of AML laws? I think this has to be my new 'thing'

You know, another place on the net similar to here I use to speak to someone of the same name as yours, but they had another name when I first started speaking to that person. Anyway, I have wondered how that person was, particularly when a particular conflict reared it's ugly head ...recently.

[atticus]

You will have to use google (other search engines are available!) to find any blogs on those subjects.

[PinkSalad]

You will have to use google (other search engines are available!) to find any blogs on those subjects.

I've been trying to do that. I am looking but as you know there is not very much out there on the side of the account holder, it's all about endorsing the law for banks/businesses for AML.