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DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

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  • DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

    The author kindly requests that If you would like to re-post this account of the test case elsewhere, please ask me first.
    EXC



    Day 11



    Brian Doctor spent most of today finishing off his submission on the subjects of good faith, PIL and penalties. The good news is that he had by far his best day in terms of performance and delivery. He was in a different class than anytime last week. I’m not too sure where he went at the weekend but I want to go there. He was relaxed, concise and looked well prepared. Go Doc!

    Finishing off on good faith from Thursday he said that the wording of Justice Smith’s declaration on good faith would have ’’far reaching effects on County Court litigation’’. He said that regulation 61 - assessment of good faith of terms - should take in to account subsequent amendments to T&Cs if they effect the assessment of fairness and also that the regulations could apply to pre 1994 contracts if contracts are subsequently amended.

    He referred to a quote from Rabinowitz that ‘’foreign commentary (on the case) is unreal and in cloud cuckoo land’’. Doctor said that this comes from places ‘’where good faith is an everyday concept’’. Then quoting from Lord Bingham in the First National Bank case Doctor said that it is not just the literal terms used in contracts that should be assessed but ‘’their likely effect’’. The judge went even further, ‘’it’s more than that’’.

    Next on the agenda was plain intelligible language. Apparently the ‘clarification’ document that has been bouncing between the OFT and the banks since the start of the case has been finalised and doctor handed copies out to the banks and the judge.

    He said that the OFT’s skeleton on PIL may have been overstated. ‘’Just because something is not in PIL doesn’t mean it’s unfair’’ and that ‘’PIL and fairness need to be considered separately’’.

    He gave an example of how PIL doesn’t work: If you order from a supplier and the T&Cs state that the price will be decided on delivery of the goods, then it’s not in plain intelligible language even though the meaning of the contract is understandable.

    Doctor said that there was uncertainty in the order in which the banks processed payments. The judge reminded him that the T&Cs stated that the order of payments was discretionary but Doctor said that in banking law practice, several payments processed on the same day should begin with the smallest payment first.
    Referring to the OFT’s ready reckoner of charges he said that Abbey could repeat charges indefinitely even though the bank had pleaded this would not happen in practice, so he questioned that the terms did not make this clear. There was also uncertainty in the enforcement of charges and he made reference to the many times that T&Cs stated ‘there MAY be a charge.

    He said that many of the banks accepted that they may lead to uncertainties. But the bank’s claims that contracts are too complicated to be in PIL and would require ‘’a complicated payments manual’’ are self inflicted.
    He pointed out the bank's enviable position of being able to deduct charges from accounts rather than having to invoice them like the rest of industry made the charges more difficult to query and that the banks ‘’don’t benefit from the discipline of enquiries’’.

    Their was a discussion with the judge about Doctor’s views on some terms that Doctor considered didn’t amount to a term. The judge said that the OFT’s POCs defined them as terms and as such they can’t be exempted ‘’if the OFT don’t consider them as terms.’’

    On penalties he started by saying the context in which are ruled ‘’is important to the County Courts as penalties arise in all claims’’.

    On the bank’s argument that the regulations ousted common law, he said ‘’the argument cannot succeed as the directive is the minimum. There is nothing in the regulations that says it supersedes common law. There is no reason why they can’t run hand in hand’’. The judge seemed to agree and said ‘’I’ll be asking Milligan how this displacement occurs’’.

    Another discussion began about the exclusion of historical terms and conditions in the penalties argument. Doctor asked the judge to reconsider historical T&Cs and the judge indicated that he may do this ‘’as a supplementary judgement’’.
    Doctor said that phrases like Barclays' ‘’you must not…’’ and that a guaranteed cheques ‘’must not exceed the funds available’’ clearly suggested a breech of contract. He jokingly said ‘I don’t want to pick on Barclays but they’re all much the same’’ and the judge laughed.

    Justice Smith asked Doctor an interesting and possibly revealing question: From the consumers point of view, if the OFT’s argument on penalties is upheld, would it be better for the OFT to consider penalties under common law or UTCCR? Doctor, who looked as though Christmas might have come early, said that he’d get back to the judge once he’d consulted the OFT.

    He finished off on disguised penalties making an analogy of a video rental which is a pound a day for the first 7 days and then £50 for the eighth day.

    RBS QC Laurence Robinowitz began his reply shortly before the hearing ended. Interestingly, he ended by informing the court that the FSA had issued their document on PIL which the judge had asked the FSA to do. As a financial services regulator, what on earth are the FSA doing by going through the defendants to announce it?

    It was good to see Bob Egerton and Budgie at the hearing. Both Bob and Budgie enjoy nothing more than taking banks to court.. Budgie told me more than a few times ‘’I love it’’.

  • #2
    Re: DAY 11

    one again thanks for your efforts in keeping us all up to date EXC.

    stone
    any opinion are are my own and advice offered is gained from my experience of life. If you want legal advice consult a Lawyer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DAY 11

      Thank you EXC
      Member of the Beagles £2 coin and small change savers clubs, both based in the Debt Forum:11:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DAY 11

        Originally posted by EXC View Post
        The author kindly requests that If you would like to re-post this account of the test case elsewhere, please ask me first.

        EXC


        Day 11


        Brian Doctor spent most of today finishing off his submission on the subjects of good faith, PIL and penalties. The good news is that he had by far his best day in terms of performance and delivery. He was in a different class than anytime last week. I’m not too sure where he went at the weekend but I want to go there. He was relaxed, concise and looked well prepared. Go Doc!

        Finishing off on good faith from Thursday he said that the wording of Justice Smith’s declaration on good faith would have ’’far reaching effects on County Court litigation’’. He said that regulation 61 - assessment of good faith of terms - should take in to account subsequent amendments to T&Cs if they effect the assessment of fairness and also that the regulations could apply to pre 1994 contracts if contracts are subsequently amended.

        He referred to a quote from Rabinowitz that ‘’foreign commentary (on the case) is unreal and in cloud cuckoo land’’. Doctor said that this comes from places ‘’where good faith is an everyday concept’’. Then quoting from Lord Bingham in the First National Bank case Doctor said that it is not just the literal terms used in contracts that should be assessed but ‘’their likely effect’’. The judge went even further, ‘’it’s more than that’’.

        Next on the agenda was plain intelligible language. Apparently the ‘clarification’ document that has been bouncing between the OFT and the banks since the start of the case has been finalised and doctor handed copies out to the banks and the judge.

        He said that the OFT’s skeleton on PIL may have been overstated. ‘’Just because something is not in PIL doesn’t mean it’s unfair’’ and that ‘’PIL and fairness need to be considered separately’’.

        He gave an example of how PIL doesn’t work: If you order from a supplier and the T&Cs state that the price will be decided on delivery of the goods, then it’s not in plain intelligible language even though the meaning of the contract is understandable.

        Doctor said that there was uncertainty in the order in which the banks processed payments. The judge reminded him that the T&Cs stated that the order of payments was discretionary but Doctor said that in banking law practice, several payments processed on the same day should begin with the smallest payment first.
        Referring to the OFT’s ready reckoner of charges he said that Abbey could repeat charges indefinitely even though the bank had pleaded this would not happen in practice, so he questioned that the terms did not make this clear. There was also uncertainty in the enforcement of charges and he made reference to the many times that T&Cs stated ‘there MAY be a charge.

        He said that many of the banks accepted that they may lead to uncertainties. But the bank’s claims that contracts are too complicated to be in PIL and would require ‘’a complicated payments manual’’ are self inflicted.
        He pointed out the bank's enviable position of being able to deduct charges from accounts rather than having to invoice them like the rest of industry made the charges more difficult to query and that the banks ‘’don’t benefit from the discipline of enquiries’’.

        Their was a discussion with the judge about Doctor’s views on some terms that Doctor considered didn’t amount to a term. The judge said that the OFT’s POCs defined them as terms and as such they can’t be exempted ‘’if the OFT don’t consider them as terms.’’

        On penalties he started by saying the context in which are ruled ‘’is important to the County Courts as penalties arise in all claims’’.

        On the bank’s argument that the regulations ousted common law, he said ‘’the argument cannot succeed as the directive is the minimum. There is nothing in the regulations that says it supersedes common law. There is no reason why they can’t run hand in hand’’. The judge seemed to agree and said ‘’I’ll be asking Milligan how this displacement occurs’’.

        Another discussion began about the exclusion of historical terms and conditions in the penalties argument. Doctor asked the judge to reconsider historical T&Cs and the judge indicated that he may do this ‘’as a supplementary judgement’’.
        Doctor said that phrases like Barclays' ‘’you must not…’’ and that a guaranteed cheques ‘’must not exceed the funds available’’ clearly suggested a breech of contract. He jokingly said ‘I don’t want to pick on Barclays but they’re all much the same’’ and the judge laughed.

        Justice Smith asked Doctor an interesting and possibly revealing question: From the consumers point of view, if the OFT’s argument on penalties is upheld, would it be better for the OFT to consider penalties under common law or UTCCR? Doctor, who looked as though Christmas might have come early, said that he’d get back to the judge once he’d consulted the OFT.

        He finished off on disguised penalties making an analogy of a video rental which is a pound a day for the first 7 days and then £50 for the eighth day.

        RBS QC Laurence Robinowitz began his reply shortly before the hearing ended. Interestingly, he ended by informing the court that the FSA had issued their document on PIL which the judge had asked the FSA to do. As a financial services regulator, what on earth are the FSA doing by going through the defendants to announce it?

        It was good to see Bob Egerton and Budgie at the hearing. Both Bob and Budgie enjoy nothing more than taking banks to court.. Budgie told me more than a few times ‘’I love it’’.
        Many thanks for taking the time Exc:okay:

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DAY 11

          A much better performance, thanks again Exc.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DAY 11

            I thought I would take the opportunity to add some comments to Exc's excellent report but firstly I would like to personally thank him for the time spent with me today, for lunch and for his continuing diligence in reporting this momentous event. I would really encourage any of you who could make a visit to the hearing to get along before it finishes. You are missing probably about the best free entertainment on offer anywhere.

            I arrived at the IDRC at 8AM and obtained my pass for the day from the lovely young lady on reception. She told me that the hearing was due to commence at 10AM but that it may be delayed. I wandered up and down Fleet Street for half an hour ( had a peek at the Royal Courts of Justice - very impressive ) and replenished caffeine and nicotine levels before arriving back at IDRC at 10AM.

            Viewing room is on second floor, small room with about 20 chairs and two TV screens, one is permanently set on Judge and the other on whichever QC is speaking. Proceedings were just about to start, sound quality is very good. I introduced myself to Exc and to a guy from "WHICH" whom I believe has been present at every day of the hearing so far. Only other people in the room were a couple of Court Ushers. Although various others people did pop in throughout the day, including Bob Bankbuster Egerton, a BBC news reporter, a couple of young Barristers and one or two others who may have been claimers but did not introduce themselves.

            Anyway moving onto the events of the day :-

            I totally agree with Exc's impression of Mr Doctor. I feel I owe the man an apology because I made some disrespectful comments in relation to Mr Doctor on the Day 10 report thread. It was suggested that his oratory may have been slicker today because he was dealing with slightly less difficult areas than last week but to be honest once he warmed up he was superb !

            I have nothing really to add to Exc's summary on the Good Faith portion of his report. This section did seem to drag on for a while but Exc’s summary is spot on.

            PIL also dragged on for quite a while as Doctor interspersed his presentation with many examples relating to this subject. One thing that Exc didn’t mention is that the OFT are now only pursuing objection 1 ( and not objections 2 and 3 ) in light of an alternative argument they have prepared relating to “obligation”
            In summary, Doctor stated that the Banks argue that in relation to PIL, you should not look beyond the actual contract terms, whilst the OFT argue that you should not just look at the terms of a contract but also at the implied obligations. The OFT are concerned by the practical operation and effects of the contract as well as the actual terms contained within the contract. The OFT say that if the terms do not deal with the “obligations” then, as a result, the terms themselves cannot be considered to be in PIL as the Consumer is thereby not capable of making an informed choice. The alternative “obligations” argument from the OFT was submitted to the Court. Bear in mind that Doctor is effectively presenting first on PIL so the Banks will respond and Doctor will have a right of reply.
            There was a lot of additional dialogue from Doctor on this “obligation” argument and a quote from Doctor “ these are more than just forensic points” but am sure Exc will pick up on this as and when the banks respond.

            Also, Doctor did state that if the banks actually admit that certain of their conditions are unclear, even if owing to the nature of their business, then as far as the OFT are concerned that is enough in itself to suggest that the terms are not in PIL.

            One other very interesting comment from Justice Smith in relation to PIL was that 6.2 is considered to be an “achievement” prize and not a “hard work best effort” prize.

            The penalty / common law presentation by Doctor was for me the most interesting event of the day. I quote from the relevant section of Exc’s report below and have added some additional commentary of my own.

            On penalties he started by saying the context in which are ruled ‘’is important to the County Courts as penalties arise in all claims’’.

            Here, Doctor was referring to the fact that Justice Smith will be giving guidance to the County Court regarding the penalty aspect of the stayed claims

            On the bank’s argument that the regulations ousted common law, he said ‘’the argument cannot succeed as the directive is the minimum. There is nothing in the regulations that says it supersedes common law. There is no reason why they can’t run hand in hand’’. The judge seemed to agree and said ‘’I’ll be asking Milligan how this displacement occurs’’.

            Additionally, Doctor stated that the UTCCR regulations are a mandate of EU law there has been no involvement by UK Parliament and there is no need or directive to replace or supercede established UK Law. Justice Smith also said that he would be asking Milligan exactly what displacement he was looking for.

            Another discussion began about the exclusion of historical terms and conditions in the penalties argument. Doctor asked the judge to reconsider historical T&Cs and the judge indicated that he may do this ‘’as a supplementary judgement’’.

            On a humerous note. Doctor request also included the rider "should you be able to find the time and the ability to to do it my Lord" ........Justice Smith responded that finding the time would be feasible but the second issue might be a bit of a problem.

            Justice Smith asked Doctor an interesting and possibly revealing question: From the consumers point of view, if the OFT’s argument on penalties is upheld, would it be better for the OFT to consider penalties under common law or UTCCR? Doctor, who looked as though Christmas might have come early, said that he’d get back to the judge once he’d consulted the OFT.

            To my point of view this was highlight of the day !

            Additionally Doctor stated that "the Banks theory that terms are Charges for a service and therefore cannot be penalties was an artificial and unreal analysis"

            And Doctor also ridiculed the Banks reliance on Jarvis Vs Harris and how this was a demonstartion as to how the Banks terms are charges for a service. ( this case refers to a Lanlord and Tenant relationship, where the Tenant fails to carry out repairs, the Landlord could carry out the repairs himself and charge the cost to the tenant ).
            Doctor cleverly stated that this was a seperate act, a definite act, the lanlord could only claim back the actual cost of the repairs. This bore no resemblance at all to the issue at hand. The Landlord was only entitled to recover his costs.


            I thoroughly enjoyed my day at the Test Case and am hoping to get back up on Thursday.

            Hope to see some of you there

            Budgie
            Last edited by Budgie; 5th February 2008, 08:57:AM. Reason: Spelling

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DAY 11

              Thanks Budgie. I'm only able to attend the morning on Thursday so if you do manage to make it perhaps you could post up what happens.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                Many thanks to Exc and Budgie!

                Great insight on the case! We appreciate the amount of time and effort that you have both put in.

                Onwards and upwards, and lets stay focussed! Our day will come!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                  Thanks Budgie. Interesting to read your account also.

                  Tanz

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                    Yes thanks again - seemed like a very interesting day - and answered a few questions that were going through my mind .Glad to see the Doctor is maybe showing his true colours in the final furlongs!

                    Jan
                    "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                    "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                      Can I just add that I had a dream last night that I'm standing in court on the sidelines and the Judge passes a document to a jury to read out the 'verdict' of this case, but can't wait and bursts out 'the banks have lost this case, you are all so busted!' or words to that effect, and then everyone runs pell mell to the exit to get their claims in!!!

                      Maybe...just maybe
                      Crash

                      DAY 1: 12/09 - S A R to British Gas
                      DAY 114: 03/01 Prelim sent for overpayment refund of £393.06

                      24 Days: E2Save Settled in full £70
                      59 Days: Barclaycard claim Settled in full £134.39

                      162 Days: Halifax Settled in full £1543.80
                      179 Days: Barclays1 Settled in full £2450.45 + £447.02 in costs
                      254 Days: Barclays 2 Settled in full £1450.91

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                        Exc and Budgie you are really appreciated :okay: great account of events again, I really do wish I could be there! val

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                          .Thank you Exc and Budgie for all your hard work and keeping us all informed. I cant wait for the next installment. Ammani.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DAY 11 - OFT Test Case

                            Originally posted by crashbandicoot View Post
                            Can I just add that I had a dream last night that I'm standing in court on the sidelines and the Judge passes a document to a jury to read out the 'verdict' of this case, but can't wait and bursts out 'the banks have lost this case, you are all so busted!' or words to that effect, and then everyone runs pell mell to the exit to get their claims in!!!

                            Maybe...just maybe
                            wish my dreams were that simple
                            #staysafestayhome

                            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                            Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                            Comment

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