CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

[Amethyst]

Credit Services Association presentation

http://www.csa-uk.com/media/editor/f...20Websites.pdf

Mmmmm maybe an FOi to the OFT on some of this part then ?

Discussed Consumer Forums and CMCs with
the OFT

Combating Consumer Websites - Ideas and Discussions - Workshop
Sara de Tute - CSA Board Director for Compliance



Consumer Forums
• Websites set up to assist consumers and for individuals to share experiences

What do they actually do?
• Encourage consumers to avoid paying debts

• Celebrate “victories” against creditors

• Set up tallies of how much has been refunded in bank charges

• Provide standard template letters

• Breeding grounds for misinformation - consumer detriment

• Insult creditors, debt purchasers and DCAs

Consumer Forums
Examples of the most commonly used Consumer Forums
Consumer Action Group
Blagger.com
Penaltychargesforum.co.uk
Getoutofdebtfree.org
Legalbeagles.info


• Discussed Consumer Forums and CMCs with
the OFT

[Tools]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

OH REEEEEEEEEEEEEALLLLLLLLLLLLLLY? Did they now?

[Curlyben]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

I like the top of page 9

What have we done so far?
• Provided MOJ with evidence of bad practices eg
Credit Card Killer – authorisation suspended

So they Do have some uses

[michael]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

What do they actually do?
• Encourage consumers to avoid paying debts
Legally, especially ones they don't actually owe
• Celebrate “victories” against creditors
Implying so-called victories, as opposed to actual victories
• Set up tallies of how much has been refunded in bank charges
Bit like the big whiteboard in your call-centres of money you've clawed back that month
• Provide standard template letters
Just like you do
• Breeding grounds for misinformation - consumer detriment
As opposed to your downright lies
• Insult creditors, debt purchasers and DCAs
There,there,there. Dry your eyes, you're big boys now

[Amethyst]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

they hate consumer websites so much, they started their own... Welcome to the CSA Consumers

[Main man]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

What do they actually do?

Celebrate “victories” against creditors


this would be similar to the "victory" they claim over reform of the Limitations Act?

[natweststaffmember]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

Apologies for long post but how can you look at their FAQ's and comment on whether they are correct or whether another answer applies:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q. I think I have been mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance, can my loan be written off?
If your insurance has been mis-sold to you may be able to claim a refund of the monies paid for the insurance, however this would not affect your loan. Therefore any loan amount would still be outstanding. Recently there have been reports of a county court writing off a debt due to the mis-selling of the insurance, these reports are not correct. The debt was written off for other reasons.
Q. I am being chased for a debt that does not belong to me. A debt collection agency keeps calling or writing letters.
This is a mis-trace. A mis-trace is where a debtor has moved address without informing their creditors. As a result the creditors must try to locate the debtor. Unfortunately searches sometimes result in the wrong address being contacted; this is usually due to a similar name or a link on the debtors credit file.
Q. What should I do to stop a collections company chasing me for a debt which is not mine?
You should contact the company, either in writing or by phone. If you are on the electoral register ask the company to check this which shows you are not the debtor. Upon notification the company should stop contact.
Q. I have notified the company that I am not the debtor but they keep on calling or writing to me.
This could be a simple error on behalf of a collector so try notifying them again. If the letters/calls continue you can make a complaint through the CSA. We will ensure the problem is solved.
Q. How do I make a complaint?
Please go to the ‘I have a complaint page’
Q. If a debt collection company believes a debtor lives at my address will my house be blacklisted?
No, there is no longer such a thing as an address blacklist. All records are held against a debtors credit file, even if your address is linked with a debtor this will not affect your credit worthiness.
Q. How do I remove a ‘link’ between my name and a debtor?
You should contact a credit reference agency. Either Experian (0115 941 0888), Equifax (0207 298 3000) and Callcredit (0113 244 1555). These will be able to contact whoever put the link on the file and work to remove it.
Q. I keep getting contacted by different collection agencies over the same debt. Every time I inform one they pass the debt to another.
This is because they are all getting the information from the same source. Please see the question How do I remove a ‘link’ between my name and a debtor to see how to fix that source.
Q. Can a debt collection agency threaten me with legal action?
A collection agency can inform a debtor of the possibility of legal action, they can only do this in a non threatening manner and where they have the legal right to take such action.
Q. Can a debt collection agency repossess goods?
No, bailiff action and debt collection are completely different. Before goods can be repossessed a court judgement must have been received.
Q. Can my creditor sell my debt to a debt collection agency?
Yes, this is called debt purchase. As a debt is legally considered property it can be sold.
Q. My debt has been sold, does this affect my rights?
No, you have the same rights against the purchaser as your original creditor. In fact in most cases purchase can significantly help debtors as interest is usually (although does not have to) be stopped.
Q. I have been told that if I ask for a copy of my agreement and include a £1 fee and this is not supplied my agreement is written off, is this true?
No, If you ask the creditor for a copy agreement (with a £1 fee) and this is not provided within 12 working days the agreement is not written off. It does mean that the creditor must stop collection on the agreement until one is later provided.
Q. What happens if it takes the creditor six months to provide the agreement?
Your creditor will be able to start collection again.
Q. Do they commit an offence by waiting so long?
No, this offence was removed in 2008. The only punishment is that they cannot collect on the account until they locate a copy of the agreement.
Q. I note that the copy agreement must be a ‘true copy’ what does this mean?
A true copy does not have to be an exact photocopy of the agreement. This is preferable if it can be located however a template of an agreement, for that product, from the time the loan was taken out would suffice. This does not have to have your signature on.
Q. Does the copy agreement have to be an exact copy of my agreement?
No, please refer to the question above.
Q. My creditor cannot provide a copy of the agreement and has now said they will write the debt off. However they will not remove the default from my credit file or refund monies paid, is this correct?
Yes, simply because the agreement cannot be provided does not mean that the debt never existed. If you have been paying towards the debt this is evidence that the debt is yours and therefore our members are under a duty to reflect this in your credit.
Q. What happens if no agreement was signed?
Then no agreement needs to be provided. Not all debts require signed agreements. Debts such as utilities, overdrafts taken out before May 2010, non credit contracts either do not require a signed agreement or do not fall under the Act which requires agreements to be given upon request. Although we do expect members to do their best to comply with reasonable requests for information.
Q. I have sent in a Subject Access Request, what should I receive back?
Any data that the company you asked has on you. You will not be entitled to a complete history of the debt if the debt used to be or is currently owned by a different company.
Q. I have received an arrears notice despite the fact that I have kept to my repayment arrangement with the debt collectors.
If the arrears notice has on it ‘this notice was sent under the Consumer Credit Act’ or words to that effect then simply ignore it. It is a legal requirement for a creditor to send this notice based on the original contract and not any repayment arrangement.
Q. I have received a notice of defaults sums despite the fact I have kept to my repayment arrangement with the debt collectors and/or the debt collectors have promised not to apply any default sums.
If the default notice has on it ‘this notice was sent under the Consumer Credit Act’ or words to that effect then it may be the case that no sums have been added. It is a legal requirement for a creditor to send this notice based on the original contract and not any repayment arrangement. You should contact your creditor if this is the case to see if they are adding the charges. Even if they are not they will have to show them in future statements.
Q. My debt was purchased; can I know how much it was purchased for?
No, this is commercially sensitive information so members will not give it out. It is not the case that a debt purchased for less than the outstanding amount reduces, the full amount is still legally outstanding therefore knowing the purchase price does not make a difference.

[EXC]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

''Discussed Consumer Forums and CMCs with
the OFT ''

The OFT have no jurisdiction whatsoever over consumer forums or indeed any non-business. It would be as meaningful as discussing amphibians with them.

[LuggerBugs]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

FEEL FREE TO ADD TO/AMENS AS NECESSARY.

Apologies for long post but how can you look at their FAQ's and comment on whether they are correct or whether another answer applies:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q. I think I have been mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance, can my loan be written off?
Depends. For pre April 2007 loans, if PPI HAS been mis sold, this renders the entire agreement unenforcable, See Wilson v etc, etc.
Q. I am being chased for a debt that does not belong to me. A debt collection agency keeps calling or writing letters.
This is a mis-trace. A mis-trace is where a debtor has moved address without informing their creditors. As a result the creditors must try to locate the debtor. Unfortunately searches sometimes result in the wrong address being contacted; this is usually due to a similar name or a link on the debtors credit file. WE CONSIDER THIS SORT OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE TO BE ALL PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE.
Q. What should I do to stop a collections company chasing me for a debt which is not mine?
You should contact the company, either in writing or by phone. If you are on the electoral register ask the company to check this which shows you are not the debtor. Upon notification the company should stop contact. BUT PROBABLY WON'T SINCE YOU ARE SEEN AS AN EASY TARGET, AND MOST OF OUR MEMBERS HAVE HAD PRIOR SUCCESS IN GETTING BLOOD OUT OF A STONE.
Q. I have notified the company that I am not the debtor but they keep on calling or writing to me.
This could be a simple error (BUT IS MORE THAN LIKELY DOWN TO PROFESSIONAL INEPTITUDE AND/OR SHEER BLOODY MINDEDNESS) on behalf of a collector so try notifying them again. If the letters/calls continue you can make a complaint through the CSA. We will ensure the problem is solved.
Q. How do I make a complaint?
Please go to the ‘I have a complaint page’ BOLLIX. GIVE THE OFFENDING COMPANY 8 WEEKS, THEN ESCALATE AS APPROPRIATE TO THE REGULATORY BODIES.
Q. If a debt collection company believes a debtor lives at my address will my house be blacklisted?
No, there is no longer such a thing as an address blacklist. All records are held against a debtors credit file, even if your address is linked with a debtor this will not affect your credit worthiness.
Q. How do I remove a ‘link’ between my name and a debtor?
You should contact a credit reference agency. Either Experian (0115 941 0888), Equifax (0207 298 3000) and Callcredit (0113 244 1555). These will be able to contact whoever put the link on the file and work to remove it.
Q. I keep getting contacted by different collection agencies over the same debt. Every time I inform one they pass the debt to another.
This is because they are all getting the information from the same source. Please see the question How do I remove a ‘link’ between my name and a debtor to see how to fix that source.
Q. Can a debt collection agency threaten me with legal action?
A collection agency can inform a debtor of the possibility of legal action, they can only do this in a non threatening manner and where they have the legal right to take such action. BUT OUR MEMBERS WILL DO SO ANYWAY AS A MATTER OF COURSE.
Q. Can a debt collection agency repossess goods?
No, bailiff action and debt collection are completely different. Before goods can be repossessed a court judgement must have been received. BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN OUR MEMBERS WON'T CHANCE THEIR ARM WITH THEIR THREATOGRAMS ANYWAY.
Q. Can my creditor sell my debt to a debt collection agency?
Yes, this is called debt purchase. As a debt is legally considered property it can be sold. MOST MEMBERS OF OUR DEBT BUYERS ASSOCIATION HAVE BEEN DUPED INTO PURCHASING WORTHLESS LIABILITIES FROM THEIR UNSCRUPULOUS CLIENTS.
Q. My debt has been sold, does this affect my rights?
No, you have the same rights against the purchaser as your original creditor. In fact in most cases purchase can significantly help debtors as interest is usually (although does not have to) be stopped. AND IF YOU BELIEVE OUR MEMBERS HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART, THEN YOU ARE MORE STUPID THAN EVEN WE IMAGINED.
Q. I have been told that if I ask for a copy of my agreement and include a £1 fee and this is not supplied my agreement is written off, is this true?
No, If you ask the creditor for a copy agreement (with a £1 fee) and this is not provided within 12 working days the agreement is not written off. It does mean that the creditor must stop collection on the agreement until one is later provided. ALTHOUGH MOST OF OUR MEMBERS ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY CAN SIDESTEP THE LAW HERE FOR SOME REASON.
Q. What happens if it takes the creditor six months to provide the agreement?
Your creditor will be able to start collection again.
Q. Do they commit an offence by waiting so long?
No, this offence was removed in 2008. The only punishment is that they cannot collect on the account until they locate a copy of the agreement. BUT IT WON'T STOP OUR MEMBERS DOING THEIR DAMNDEST TO GET YOU INTO COURT IN ANY CASE, SINCE WE ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE OUR MEMBERS TO REMOVE THE WORD 'VEXATIOUS' FROM THEIR DICTIONARIES.
Q. I note that the copy agreement must be a ‘true copy’ what does this mean?
A true copy does not have to be an exact photocopy of the agreement. This is preferable if it can be located however a template of an agreement, for that product, from the time the loan was taken out would suffice. This does not have to have your signature on. IN FACT, MANY OF OUR MEMBERS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN PULLING THE WOOL OVER CERTAIN JUDGES' EYES WITH COMPLETE FABRICATIONS WHERE AGREEMENTS HAVE NEVER EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Q. Does the copy agreement have to be an exact copy of my agreement?
No, please refer to the question above. YES, SEE ABOVE.
Q. My creditor cannot provide a copy of the agreement and has now said they will write the debt off. However they will not remove the default from my credit file or refund monies paid, is this correct?
Yes, simply because the agreement cannot be provided does not mean that the debt never existed. If you have been paying towards the debt this is evidence that the debt is yours and therefore our members are under a duty to reflect this in your credit. BECAUSE THEY ARE VINDICTIVE *******S, AND CANNOT BEAR THE THOUGHT OF NOT HURTING YOU AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
Q. What happens if no agreement was signed?
Then no agreement needs to be provided. Not all debts require signed agreements. Debts such as utilities, overdrafts taken out before May 2010, non credit contracts either do not require a signed agreement or do not fall under the Act which requires agreements to be given upon request. Although we do expect members to do their best to comply with reasonable requests for information.
Q. I have sent in a Subject Access Request, what should I receive back?
Any data that the company you asked has on you. You will not be entitled to a complete history of the debt if the debt used to be or is currently owned by a different company.
Q. I have received an arrears notice despite the fact that I have kept to my repayment arrangement with the debt collectors.
If the arrears notice has on it ‘this notice was sent under the Consumer Credit Act’ or words to that effect then simply ignore it. It is a legal requirement for a creditor to send this notice based on the original contract and not any repayment arrangement.
Q. I have received a notice of defaults sums despite the fact I have kept to my repayment arrangement with the debt collectors and/or the debt collectors have promised not to apply any default sums.
If the default notice has on it ‘this notice was sent under the Consumer Credit Act’ or words to that effect then it may be the case that no sums have been added. It is a legal requirement for a creditor to send this notice based on the original contract and not any repayment arrangement. You should contact your creditor if this is the case to see if they are adding the charges. Even if they are not they will have to show them in future statements.
Q. My debt was purchased; can I know how much it was purchased for?
No, this is commercially sensitive information so members will not give it out. It is not the case that a debt purchased for less than the outstanding amount reduces, the full amount is still legally outstanding therefore knowing the purchase price does not make a difference. BUT DO BEAR IN MIND IT WILL HAVE BEEN FOR PENNIES IN THE POUND. PLEASE DON'T CONSIDER THIS TO BE UNJUST ENRICHMENT... OUR MEMBERS HAVE MANSIONS, SWIMMING POOLS AND ASTON MARTINS TO PAY FOR, SO THEY NEED EVERY PENNY THEY CAN LAY THEIR HANDS ON.

[Amethyst]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

''Discussed Consumer Forums and CMCs with
the OFT ''

The OFT have no jurisdiction whatsoever over consumer forums or indeed any non-business. It would be as meaningful as discussing amphibians with them.

Indeed, I was wondering more if the CSA were trying to say we should have Consumer Credit Licences.

CAB seem to be on the consumer detriment side of things too. If Which? are pee'd too (as we must affect their business a bit)..... well you know what i mean.

Have been talking for a while with Tools about getting CF's recognised as legitimate but there no way to do it without attracting regulation and restriction which naturally, is a bad thing. We are recognised legitimately by doing the consultations so there cant be much of an issue within the OFT.

Doesnt hurt to ask the OFT does it. IF there are concerns being raised by industry and 'advice' agencies they would be the ones to look at it I think - I'll send them a ditty later.

[Amethyst]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

Article in Guardian today - http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...06&postcount=2

as a counter to the CSA's views

4.14 The Consumer Council recognises the value of current (informal)
arrangements whereby consumer representative organisations and
online consumer forums offer feedback on retailers and service
providers. These sources of information tend to offer the right level of
independence, impartiality and informality that consumers trust and

appreciate

[Amethyst]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

CSA Manifesto http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http...OmbHFKAvZUUpxg

• Consumer Websites
Consumer action websites were first introduced as a source of free advice to those consumers in financial
hardship. As society and the granting of credit have changed, so has the focus of these websites.
Various websites now give detailed ‘guidance’ on how to avoid repaying debts (regardless of the merits of
the argument) using inadequately or unclearly drafted sections of the CCA, which is detrimental to those
consumers who are in financial difficulty as well as to commerce as a whole.




• Consumer Credit Act 1974 & 2006 - currently the Act is being used by debtors to avoid making
payments on their credit agreements. Bad advice, offered within consumer action websites, is misleading
those genuine debtors in financial difficulty. Sections 77 & 78 of the Act are being misinterpreted by these
‘advisors’ causing further distress and frustration to genuine debtors. The number of trace accounts has
increased substantially in recent years. The Act should introduce a penalty to those debtors who fail to
advise their creditors they have moved (either unintentionally or not).

[F_DCAs]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

Sara de Tute? Not the same Sara de Tute affiliated with Wescot? Not the same Wescot affiliated in the Beryl Brazier suicide tragedy?

[Brian]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

Question for the CSA (if they are earwigging this site...)
what are you moaning about....?If I didnt know better I'd say it looks like a bad case of sour grapes...

[DownNotOut]

Re: CSA presentation on 'combating consumer websites'

Without resorting to bad language, they are very much feeling upset that slowly the consumer is seeking information to fight back against bullies? I have no problem with paying my debts back, I have no problem with talking to DCA about making arrangements to pay my debts back. What I do object too is the manner of discontent they show for the consumer. IF they sent a nice letter saying "we have taken control of the account XXX from client XXX, and we would like to work out a repayment plan that you can afford, in order to clear your account." over the "if you dont pay XXXX within 7 days, we may come round to collect it from your door, or may send you to court where the cost will rise, along with genuine costs involved in taking you to court, we will be adding XXXX for our time call to pay! because you may loose your home/possessions"

All this does is frighten people who are usually already feeling the pinch in the hope of securing a payment that the consumer can not afford, thus feeding there own fat bellies (sorry DCAs, servicing their accounts - dont want to call you names, you get all upset!)

At the end of the day if they were reasonable and understanding and worked with the debtor in a humane way then I dare say they would get a better outcome, and the need for consumer sites would diminish over night.

I guess the war goes on, and if one site is compromised like over the road, another will open its doors.