The EU referendum

[enaid]

Re: The EU referendum

Anyway what ever question is asked on this will have no positive or indeed a 100% guarantee on what is going to happen stay or leave, it can not be done, only speculation.
Did we not have the same hopes and fears when we joined? I think so and tbh know no one personally who voted to join, maybe a northern thing, but then again the Northern Power House, complete failure in my view, a concept and I do repeat the word con, as all it was, was a dream to make us think we could be united with the south.
We are not even in anyway united as in the UK let alone with Europe, if anyone thinks all is equal and ok in the EU and we are all better off ask Greece, Spain and Italy, can they shun the UK in trade, in the tourist industry and even taking in our pensioners spending UK pensions in helping their economy.

[enaid]

Re: The EU referendum

The NHS went tits up when it was deemed ok to pool all the money scooped in from the tax system together.
Anyone knows from their payslip what they pay each month/year to the NHS and anyone on benefits should have their costs covered too.
This is robbing Peter to pay Paul to the extreme imo it should all be separate and fully accounted for, we have no free NHS we all pay albeit a fraction of the cost for actual care as an individual, but there are many paying in thousands who actually never used the system.
Your NHS contribution should be pension /NHS care separate and nothing to do with tax etc and figures shown yearly exact and sent to you. Oh well this may be too big a job for the con artists, but if there is no con there is nothing to hide imho.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

Well, we actually pay for our medical care twice; as NI contributors, and members of Bupa.!

I do not want to turn this into a debate about the NHS but what really bugs me is the fact that our BUPA membership is taxed as a benefit in kind even though it is taking a burden off the NHS. That little irritant is down to HMRC i.e. the British Government. Surely they should offer some incentive for employees to take the relevant amount of money as private health care instead of a salary payment. As a result those who have it as part of their employment package pay tax on money they never get and for a benefit many never use. So naturally they ask for the cash and the result is an overburdened NHS.
BTW...
If the EU is so undemocratic how come we are allowed to hold a referendum to decide if we stay or leave?

[nemesis45]

Re: The EU referendum

We certainly do and I've just seen some.

Fast forward to about 1mim 40 seconds to the NHS ''Inside EU - Outside EU'' ad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...leave-09062016

Complete and utter scaremongering b****cks.

A very Grim fairy tale Charity!

nem

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Ok coming back to this important and somewhat very confusing situation we have before us.
Point 1 on my understanding of the referendum

I don't want any OTT explanations am a simple girl with a simple mind.


The laws the EU has made re employment, holiday pay, agency workers, maternity pay etc, all well and good and all gratefully received, but answer me this, has not the zero hrs contracts not taken the P out of the said laws?
The fact that you must now work for 2 yrs before being able to take any action re unfair dismissal etc and pay a lot more and only if you can afford it to start the proceedings.
Just seems to me they have given and hath taken away, given because they were made to and taken away just because they can.

Hello Enaid

Zero hour contracts is the Tory invention in the UK. EU law deals with all matters between all 28 EU countries (member state) law, including the main Treat's binding principle: 'Freedom of Movement.' So, if a Romanian worker comes to the UK for example EU law protects him and his family. If the UK Gov discriminate against him or pay him less than UK citizens, EU protects him. I studied EU court cases where the ECJ (EU highest court) said even an EU citizen job-seeker is entitled to UK benefits whilst unemployed.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Oh and another thing, before I am shoved off my soap box…...My husband may be out of work by the end of the year if we vote to leave for 2 reasons; The majority of his customers are based in the EU and a European company offering millions of pounds of much needed investment will not get involved if we cast ourselves adrift.
Now people who will not be directly affected may tell you it will not destroy foreign trade but the EXPERTS insist it will. So who should we believe? Successful business people employing thousands of workers or people who have been lying to us for years?

EU law benefits businesses that's a no brainer. It does not benefit the average person which is also a no brainer. So in short, the EU is largely a business interest. The UK and other richer countries in the EU exploit its poorer citizens in the poorest EU countries by setting up businesses there and paying the citizens their local wage. The EU benefits the global giant that is Ford or in its UK guise, Jaguar Land Rover et al.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

The receptionist is the best bit -she will suddenly become a friendly, conscientious person with respect for sick people once we leave.
Our local A&E is overburdened. They have just spent hundreds of thousands of pounds re vamping it and building a wall to hide the queues of Ambulances but now the NHS are proposing to shut it down and force seriously Ill people to travel a minimum of 30 miles to the nearest point of emergency care. Throw money away on aesthetics then think about moving it. That is the thinking of the ill-informed ejits running the system and nothing to do with EU legislation. BTW, we have very few EU migrants or foreigners here. Actually I seem to be the only pariah in the village!

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

EU law benefits businesses that's a no brainer. It does not benefit the average person which is also a no brainer. So in short, the EU is largely a business interest. The UK and other richer countries in the EU exploit its poorer citizens in the poorest EU countries by setting up businesses there and paying the citizens their local wage. The EU benefits the global giant that is Ford or in its UK guise, Jaguar Land Rover et al.

Business’s provide employment, employment provides a salary and that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Yes the EU benefits big business and I am saying that is a good thing. The big employers including Jaguar land rover can employ people because they enjoy free trade with Europe. That is a benefit to the ordinary person and has a huge effect on the local economy and the coffers in Westminster. If the people at the top of the tree make a lot of money then that is simple economics. It is one of the basic principals of commerce.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

On balance I will vote in . Partly I dont want to be left alone on a small island with a bunch of tories, and partly I think we will have more influence in the long run in . IF we leave I fear we have to pay to trade and it will be more than we pay now without the rebate and grants. The EU needs reform and we are better at being in the eu .
I feel the most important thing is for people to vote. The larger the number of votes the more legitimacy the referendum has . Remember that the government is not bound by the result and there isa cabal of in MPs who may vote against the leave act . If the result is very close on a very small turnout then the government may be justified in ignoring the result and carrying on .

The Tories are power heads unlike Labour who'll give the power to the EU bureaucrats at the drop of a hat. The Tories know that EU has the power to be a dangerous beast and must be stopped before it sucks so much power away from the UK's power house that the UK will have power simply not worth having. The EU dream is to bring its citizens ever closer to a political and legal Union. So, you may think you'd like to stay on this island with the EU powerhouse controlling the UK's power houses (ie courts, government) but at some point even the business interests will regret not leaving the EU. The EU is simply a dictat machine and will play softly softly catchie moneky to vacuum all the UK's powers away with lots of political rhetoric. But when the music stops the nightmare of the EU entity will become apparent albeit too late to do anything about it. Businesses just like making all the profit but commercial men do not see the wood for the trees albeit the sacrifice will be the loss of their freedom. The EU is just one entity of the UN is what people do not understand. Once the EU machine has the UK in its clutches simply heavens knows what life will look like under its dictat. This is the long term view of course, perhaps 50 years or so into the future.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Business’s provide employment, employment provides a salary and that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Yes the EU benefits big business and I am saying that is a good thing. The big employers including Jaguar land rover can employ people because they enjoy free trade with Europe. That is a benefit to the ordinary person and has a huge effect on the local economy and the coffers in Westminster. If the people at the top of the tree make a lot of money then that is simple economics. It is one of the basic principals of commerce.

JLR in the Northwest makes 10 million a day in profit....its factories are open 24-7, they use psychometric testing to recruit employees, which is nothing more than the Eugenic's emanation...to keep an efficient ship. Its director is a German with an engineering background. I can guess the dynamics in JLR in that the robots are not just its machines. The production line will creep at slow place but will not stop once. Karl Marx tried to balance the power between industrial fat cats and the average worker, but the worker in the modern factory with Fords/ JLR being no exception, negotiates nothing except may be his overtime.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

I could, (and some may say do), rant for hours about this. I am adamant we should stay in. I am also adamant that we should all vote. No one can use the excuse that it will ‘make no difference to their everyday lives’. Our decision will affect every man, woman and child now and for many, many years to come.

No it will not affect every man, woman and child. The UK has survived for hundreds of years before 1972 when we became part of the EU, and will continue if we leave the EU. If we stay in the EU, at some point in the future it will certainly affect every man, woman and child, in my view in the negative. Business people live in a bourgeois' fantasy but are so far removed from the ordinary person's reality. The NHS even for the Tory dream is simply a private entity waiting to happen so the EU if we stay in will dismantle that too so we will have a nightmare private health system like the US's former one, or the dictat one they have now, where it costs the average US worker more money now under the new system than it did under the old.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Well, we actually pay for our medical care twice; as NI contributors, and members of Bupa.!

I do not want to turn this into a debate about the NHS but what really bugs me is the fact that our BUPA membership is taxed as a benefit in kind even though it is taking a burden off the NHS. That little irritant is down to HMRC i.e. the British Government. Surely they should offer some incentive for employees to take the relevant amount of money as private health care instead of a salary payment. As a result those who have it as part of their employment package pay tax on money they never get and for a benefit many never use. So naturally they ask for the cash and the result is an overburdened NHS.
BTW...
If the EU is so undemocratic how come we are allowed to hold a referendum to decide if we stay or leave?

The UK Gov offers a referendum not the EU. The EU in terms of the 'the commission' et al does not vote people into power as they're appointed by the bureaucrats in each EU country (ie member state). The European Parliament who are voted in have no real power. The EU thinks about economies to benefit the EU not the UK economy to benefit the UK citizens. At least in Parliament we have the illusion of voting people in according to our preferential politics... even though our politics are sociologically engineered anyway in that the choice we have is of the choices they provide us with. It's just a game like court, they're all actors with roles....all for control.

[pt2537]

Re: The EU referendum

The Tories are power heads unlike Labour who'll give the power to the EU bureaucrats at the drop of a hat. The Tories know that EU has the power to be a dangerous beast and must be stopped before it sucks so much power away from the UK's power house that the UK will have power simply not worth having. The EU dream is to bring its citizens ever closer to a political and legal Union. So, you may think you'd like to stay on this island with the EU powerhouse controlling the UK's power houses (ie courts, government) but at some point even the business interests will regret not leaving the EU. The EU is simply a dictat machine and will play softly softly catchie moneky to vacuum all the UK's powers away with lots of political rhetoric. But when the music stops the nightmare of the EU entity will become apparent albeit too late to do anything about it. Businesses just like making all the profit but commercial men do not see the wood for the trees albeit the sacrifice will be the loss of their freedom. The EU is just one entity of the UN is what people do not understand. Once the EU machine has the UK in its clutches simply heavens knows what life will look like under its dictat. This is the long term view of course, perhaps 50 years or so into the future.

responses like that make me wonder where you studied EU law.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

Don’t get me started on Karl Marx! Champagne socialist who lived beyond his means and ponced off everyone.
I am afraid that in 1972 this country was not in such great shape which is probably why the people voted to stay in the referendum of 1975.
Look, perhaps we should just be glad that we live in a country that still allows us a say!


The main arguments are 1 -money. We gave the EU roughly £17.8 billion last year. Fact is we received about £5 billion in rebates. We also get subsidies paid to farmers and some businesses that amount to approximately £6 billion. The advantage of free trade is estimated to be worth between £6 and £7 billion to UK based companies.
2 -migration. OK I have a vested interest here but am I the only one who has travelled through Europe and met British People working there? I am I the only one to have seen pubs called the rose and crown and been able to buy British newspapers abroad.? The fact is the British do migrate and work in Europe.


3 -strain on social welfare. It is easy to say Europeans come here just to claim benefits. If this is an EU directive then they can claim benefits in all the EU member states. Trust me the payments here are not the best in Europe. If a European worker pays PAYE and NI in this country he or she has a right to claim benefits such as Children’s allowance and has a right to free health care just like any other worker. Claiming benefits when you have not worked here is wrong but becoming more difficult and will be amended in the future.

4 -Non democratic /having legislation forced upon us. If it is so undemocratic then how come we get to elect MEPs who have the same right to veto or support all laws, rules and regulations governing the EU states? OK we may not get our own way all of the time but we do have a say in Europe and much of the legislation is to everyone’s benefit including ours.


4 -Identity/Sovereignty. My husband refers to himself as being English. He was born and raised in Britain but calls himself English. We live in Wales where most people call themselves Welsh and believe me the Scots have no problem with their identity. We speak English and have the Queens image on our Sterling. Around the world people who have never set foot in Ireland wreath themselves in Shamrock and dance like electrocuted eels on St. Patrick's day! Digest this weekends celebrations of the Queens birthday or watch the last night of the Proms.
That one simply does not hold water. There is no issue with identity.


The UK is an island nation. It is a proud and despite the general air of gloom and doom, a prosperous country. Should we cut ourselves adrift from Europe then I have no doubt the consequences would be disastrous. However…..we live in a democracy and we do have a choice. I must admit that the trend seems to be to leave and I actually expect this to be the result.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

I have to go now -to the supermarket to get subsidised English butter and Milk, French Brie and wine, Italian pasta and, god help us all, German sausage. Might even go wild and get some Belgian chocolate. While I still can that is. i.e. before my Husband looses his job and the cheating UK government slap an import duty of 10% on everything and they will, believe me!