Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

[nemesis45]

Re: Default date query

Sorry i missed this, wont really wash this IMO.

The t and cs are personally negotiated conditions regarding the loan, just because his name isn't on them does not make them exempt, you could say the same about statements for instance, just a list of numbers.

NO the Ts & Cs are not negotiated if one does not accept the lenders terms and conditions no loan will be provided simple clear fact!!

I cannot comprehend where you get these " theories" from. Wrong the statements by way of an account number can be linked to the data subject where on earth do you get ideas from.
None of them have any relation to reality and to keep inventing more spurious theories is pointless you need to do some proper research on well every thing!

[Roland]

Re: Default date query

Of course financial agreements are negotiated, it is called antecedent negotiations, in the case of packaged deals the negotiation rests on the decision of the borrower to buy the product.

Anyway that is by the way the definition of personal data is

Personal data’ is defined in Article 2 of the Directive by reference towhether information relates to an identified or identifiableindividual.now to me anyway the terms on and individuals agreement refer to him

Anyway some reading here
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organis...of_the_dpa.pdf

[nemesis45]

Re: Default date query

As usual it seems no idea of reality and no understanding of how to interpret regulations only your misguided take on matters.
What I have said is what really happens in the "grown up" world.

I have two SAR replies on my desk this morning from a high street bank and a finance house both decline to provide agreements one will supply only a " signature " page the other will not supply a DN ( no obligation to hold an exact copy and confirms DN sent on specific date).
Note: From Bank The terms and condition of this account are those provided to all out customers applying for this product (credit card) and are generic in nature and not subject to A Data Subject Access Request.

One creditor confirms that if required it can provide " a reconstituted" copy of a DN.
Both add a rider that CCA 1974 sections 77 to 79 Provide for the request of regulated agreement.

End of story real life not misinterpretation.


nem

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Hope I am not hijacking this thread but someone said that a bank account does not require a default notice , if that is the case does it mean anything if they do send one?

On another point, surely an agreement is personal data as it contains the name and address of both parties and must therefore be personal data.

[nemesis45]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Hope I am not hijacking this thread but someone said that a bank account does not require a default notice , if that is the case does it mean anything if they do send one?

On another point, surely an agreement is personal data as it contains the name and address of both parties and must therefore be personal data.

A Demand for Immediate Payment in Full or Final Demand is used for current accounts and overdraft.

The Agreement/terms and condition matter regarding SAR's as said so many time many creditors decline to supply either the agreement i.e. the signature page and/or the T's & C;s.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Thanks for the reply Nemesis but could someone please answer my questions

If a bank does send a Default notice , does it make a difference or are you saying that that would never happen?

I realise that some creditors may decline to send an agreement but if it is headed
This is a consumer credit agreement blah blah between rip of bank plc and bernithebolt of 25 Acacia Gardens , AnyTown then surely that is personal data and could you then make a complaint to the ICO?

I am not asking about what may happen but what should happen

[nemesis45]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Thanks for the reply Nemesis but could someone please answer my questions

If a bank does send a Default notice , does it make a difference or are you saying that that would never happen?

I realise that some creditors may decline to send an agreement but if it is headed
This is a consumer credit agreement blah blah between rip of bank plc and bernithebolt of 25 Acacia Gardens , AnyTown then surely that is personal data and could you then make a complaint to the ICO?

I am not asking about what may happen but what should happen

In a letter from the Commissioner in reply to any inquiry I made regarding specifically the non compliance of creditor with certain parts of a Data Subject Access Request and specifically agreement and terms an conditions it was stated " although we Might Expect an agreement to be produced there is no specific obligation so to do." "Terms and Conditions which are provided to all clients on making/accepting a financial product for example a credit card are by nature generic and will not need to be supplied.
The provisions of CCA 1974 for requesting documents is available from the creditor upon application and payment of a £1 fee.

I have SAR replies for 3rd parties in front of me which decline to supply agreements and or Ts' & C's and offer reconstituted DNs as they have no obligation to store/archive hard copies.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Are you a politician? You seems an expert at not answering the question

Looking at the ICO website anything that identifies, or has potential to identify you should be included and hence an agreement with your name and address MUST be included no matter what they say

Can you please please (or anyone) tell me what happens if a bank does send a default notice for a current account, does that change the rules. I think a few years ago I was sent a default notice for a bank account but am not sure

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Hope I am not hijacking this thread but someone said that a bank account does not require a default notice , if that is the case does it mean anything if they do send one?

The need for a DN under s.87 of the CCA relates only to regulated agreements: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...efault-notices

Overdrafts are now also covered by the CCA under s.74A and 74B which sets out what information should be sent with regards to a bank account: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/part/VA

That doesn't mean you can't receive a DN for a non-regulated debt, for example a few years ago I got a DN for a water bill, but that was a notice that a default would be recorded on my credit file, not one issued under s.87 of the CCA.

On another point, surely an agreement is personal data as it contains the name and address of both parties and must therefore be personal data.

Of course it is, no-one's saying it isn't. The arguments above refer to T&Cs rather than the agreement as such. You have your agreement with the original terms, then you have varied terms along the life of the credit product. If you have a credit card, the bank will write to you every time they've changed the T&Cs, they'll send you a letter with a little booklet with the new terms. This booklet won't have any personal information, it' will be one of several thousand copies the bank would have got printed. Although both the cover letter and the booklet apply to you and your account, the bank would argue neither is stored in a relevant filing system since the letters are just mail-merged as I said above and the booklets will be sitting in a cardboard box somewhere, and once new terms supersede the old ones, the old booklets would just get discarded.

If a bank does send a Default notice , does it make a difference or are you saying that that would never happen?

I realise that some creditors may decline to send an agreement but if it is headed
This is a consumer credit agreement blah blah between rip of bank plc and bernithebolt of 25 Acacia Gardens , AnyTown then surely that is personal data and could you then make a complaint to the ICO?

I am not asking about what may happen but what should happen

Yes, you can complain to the bank and then to the ICO, however, the ICO isn't exactly a force to be reckoned with and the banks can't be expected to provide anything that would require a 'disproportionate effort' to obtain. The law doesn't say that they should only provide data for the last six years either, however, this is the argument they would also use to justify it, anything older would have been archived somewhere on the outskirts of Croydon or the Ukraine, if you see what I mean.

If the agreement has vanished, they can't send it, full stop. I send a SAR to MBNA in 2010, they promptly replied attaching all statements and a cover letter saying they could not provide the agreement due to 'archival retrieval issues with the A&L' (it was an old A&L card). You can't use that to argue about the enforceability of the account so I also sent a CCA request and got the same response. I've not paid them since Jan 2010 and never even had a NoA.

[Roland]

Re: Default date query

Of course financial agreements are negotiated, it is called antecedent negotiations, in the case of packaged deals the negotiation rests on the decision of the borrower to buy the product.

Anyway that is by the way the definition of personal data is

Personal data’ is defined in Article 2 of the Directive by reference towhether information relates to an identified or identifiableindividual.now to me anyway the terms on and individuals agreement refer to him

Anyway some reading here
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organis...of_the_dpa.pdf

Just looking at some other info regarding the term"relates to" as prescribed in the definition.

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organis...sonal-data.pdf

"Informing or influencing decisionsThere are many other examples of data which 'relate to' a particularindividual because it is linked to that individual and informs orinfluences actions or decisions which affect an individual."

I think this would be applicable to agreement terms

[Roland]

Re: Default date query

As usual it seems no idea of reality and no understanding of how to interpret regulations only your misguided take on matters.
What I have said is what really happens in the "grown up" world.

I have two SAR replies on my desk this morning from a high street bank and a finance house both decline to provide agreements one will supply only a " signature " page the other will not supply a DN ( no obligation to hold an exact copy and confirms DN sent on specific date).
Note: From Bank The terms and condition of this account are those provided to all out customers applying for this product (credit card) and are generic in nature and not subject to A Data Subject Access Request.

One creditor confirms that if required it can provide " a reconstituted" copy of a DN.
Both add a rider that CCA 1974 sections 77 to 79 Provide for the request of regulated agreement.

End of story real life not misinterpretation.


nem

Insulting again Nem, you seem to rely on this as a substitute for evidence to your beliefs, I have not seen you quote one authority for your beliefs and you criticise me for doing just that.

I am sure you have all sorts on your desk but unless you scan them and put them on here for us to see it is not authority it is rhetoric and third party gossip.

I find it hard to believe that a representative of the ICO would refer you to the CCA.
hey are only concerned with the DPA.
Because a CCA request may or not be successful has no effect on the claim under section 7 of the DPA, I am afraid in this I must be somewhat sceptical.

[pt2537]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

A Demand for Immediate Payment in Full or Final Demand is used for current accounts and overdraft.

The Agreement/terms and condition matter regarding SAR's as said so many time many creditors decline to supply either the agreement i.e. the signature page and/or the T's & C;s.

Overdrafts are still regulated, despite their exemption from Part V of the CCA 1974. Thus the Creditor would still need a demand under either s76 or 98A and for breach of the contract then s87 does still bite even for an overdraft

[Roland]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

Overdrafts are still regulated, despite their exemption from Part V of the CCA 1974. Thus the Creditor would still need a demand under either s76 or 98A and for breach of the contract then s87 does still bite even for an overdraft

How so when no section 87 notice need be issued ?

[pt2537]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

How so when no section 87 notice need be issued ?

Depends if the creditor seeks to terminate the agreement by reason of breach though doesn't it.

[Roland]

Re: Should a DPA SAR response include terms / agreements ?

I think on an overdraft there is a term within the banking agreement which permits the debt to be recalled, with due notice t any time.

The provisions of section 76 and 94a will still apply but there is no requirement for a notice, because there is no requirement for a default, the overdrawn balance is only a tacit arrangement in any case.