Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

[labman]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

I think most people with a genuine MH illness which stops them doing paid work, do something purposeful, if they are able, to contribute to society. So many with a genuine illness do a vast range of unpaid work in order 'to do their bit.' Nobody I know who is genuinely off work long term / permanently, would not willingly change places and health conditions with someone who is able to work.

I was reflecting today on my posts from yesterday about people being made to do 12 hours work on the NMW, as that is roughly the same as they get in benefit. What I did not account for, of course, but should have, is the housing benefit, council tax benefit, child benefits etc.... that these people may also be claiming. I guess when that is all added up, you are getting nearer to a full weeks work - round here, just for a single parent, in a two bedroomed house / flat that would add up to about £235 per week.

At a minimum wage of what, about £6 per hour, that equates to working approx 39 hours for their benefit.

[charitynjw]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

I was talking to two people today, a single young mum (2 small children - OH gone AWOL), & her mother (Married 30 years, no qualifications/work experience as her life has been raising & looking after a family) - husband also deserted her for a 'newer model'.

Young mum would like to get back to work, but couldn't possibly afford child care on the wages she would get.

Her mum would willingly look after the children (her GK's) FOC - a natural-born carer - but would probably lose JSA as she wouldn't be available for work. The JSA is a 'passport' benefit to other benefits which would otherwise have to be paid for.
It would not be an option to take on more (paid) childcare duties, as her 2 teenage sons are still at home, they have learning difficulties & are unpredictable in their behaviour.

Both feel they are 'trapped', even though both have potentially many years of 'working' life ahead of them.

[Inca]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

Please don't get me wrong,,benefits for those GENUINELY sick/disabled,,be it by any form including MH,I do NOT have an issue with. I have an issue with the piss poor Carers Allowance,,its disgraceful,less than £60 a week to care for someone for a minimum of 35 hours.....now THAT'S wrong on every level.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

My mum had MS with Osteoarthritis with a crumbing spine and was wheelchair bound for much of her last 20 years of her life. She would help Dad peel the potatoes from her wheelchair which gave her something to do. Her hands and arms were OK she was just dead from the waist down. Before though she was wheelchair bound she used to be at her sewing machine making curtains for the customers who bought from their linen shop. She walked with a stick then and I don't ever remember her complaining about the pain. She must have been in the most horrendous pain with her back, but if there was a sale to be made, she was there and willing to let the customer go out with the curtains ready to hang. I believe working helps you to overcome your pains and keeps your mind more focused. Was she depressed, I am sure she was, but keeping her mind active took away those feelings.

Keeping mentally-active helps keeps depression at bay, so I have been told. A lot of people with my condition do voluntary work, quite a few of them in the advice sector, as this doesn't aggravate the symptoms. Only 5% of those with FMS are able to hold down a full-time job. Each case should be assessed on the way in which the condition affects the patient and the history, but that doesn't seem to suit IDS and his plans. I bet he would be complaining the loudest if the boot was on the other foot.

[labman]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

Keeping mentally-active helps keeps depression at bay, so I have been told. A lot of people with my condition do voluntary work, quite a few of them in the advice sector, as this doesn't aggravate the symptoms. Only 5% of those with FMS are able to hold down a full-time job. Each case should be assessed on the way in which the condition affects the patient and the history, but that doesn't seem to suit IDS and his plans. I bet he would be complaining the loudest if the boot was on the other foot.

I'd agree keeping mentally active helps keep depression at bay - more than anything, it provides a purposeful distraction which is often important. Working in the advice sector and trying to help people is fine, but it can bring with it a whole load of unwanted stresses which can exacerbate the condition. Like everything, so much depends on the atmosphere around you - a positive atmosphere boosts the feeling of well being, a negative one makes it worse. People can play a large part in this, either intentionally or unintentionally. We've seen on this site many examples where care and nurturing have helped people to cope, and to cope to the point of returning to work. That's great.

As BB says, IDS think one size fits all - it doesn't. I've been banned by the medics from doing paid work ever again. Why? Because the sort of paid job I would get would make me depressed and exacerbate my condition. I still work long hours every week, unpaid, trying to help others. The medics know I will always find something purposeful to do.

The mental stimulation and keeping purposefully occupied is important, but equally important, I think, for most of us, is the need to feel appreciated. Again, that's where this site usually comes into its own, as those who we know have issues are made to feel cared for and appreciated. This nurturing always reaps dividends. Look at George, Patchie, Ruby, Monzter and so many others. All given care and love; all nurtured and appreciated for who and what they are. It's good and it benefits everyone - those giving and receiving. But the cases are treated individually and cared for individually. No single one is the same, and all deserve that chance. Thats where IDS will fall down.

[Inca]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

But we have to be careful and remember LB is a Consumer Advice forum...people come here for advice and hopefully the solution to their woes.
Getting too 'close' to people can ,sometimes,backfire big style when the advice they are given isn't what they want to hear.
Respecting people for their help and their knowledge is fabulous,but friendships and anything else should be nurtured off forum to prevent situations where personalities clash and threads are turned into battlegrounds.

That's only my little opinion anyway.

[labman]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

But we have to be careful and remember LB is a debt advice forum...people come here for advice and hopefully the solution to their woes.
Getting too 'close' to people can ,sometimes,backfire big style when the advice they are given isn't what they want to hear.
Respecting people for their help and their knowledge is fabulous,but friendships and anything else should be nurtured off forum to prevent situations where personalities clash and threads are turned into battlegrounds.

That's only my little opinion anyway.

LB is a Consumer Advice forum - it goes way beyond debt advice. The nurturing and care I was talking about was all, of course, on forum. The cases I cited, with the exception of George who has undisputedly been nurtured and cared for here, were all taken from the MH section as it was that I was talking about, in response to the post by Bluebottle.

Apologies for any misunderstandings. Nobody, I hope, would want a thread turned into a battleground. It would be totally against the ethos of the site. Rational, sensible and sensitive argument / debate is one thing. War is a different thing entirely. :beagle:

My post was purely generic in response to a previous one.

[teaboy2]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

Personally if they are forced to work, then they should be paid minimum wage or the going rate for that job. Otherwise its slave labour, plus we would be tarring them with the same brush as those that have criminal convictions and ordered to do community service.

Not to mention the risk that persons employed right now, doing jobs for the local councils, such as litter picking and street cleaning etc, could end up losing there jobs being replaced with unemployed people working for their benefits, only for themselves 3 years later being forced to do the same job they did for the council for a full time wage just for to get their own benefits.

As for forcing job seekers to take part in 9-5 classroom sessions at local job centres - Well that's just stupid. Who's going to pay for that, why not just spend the money on letting those that are unemployed but would like to go full time to college (Something they can not do without losing their benefits at the moment) do so. Which would mean no additional costs, where as running these 9-5 classrooms would cost millions.

The government is hoping that people will choose to lose benefits, so they can say that they have cut the welfare bill. But in reality those on benefits can not afford to lose them, accept those making fraudulent claims. Therefore claimants will do whatever it takes to keep their benefits. So the welfare state bill won't go down, but when the costs of these schemes are added to it, it will actually go up, in my opinion. Its a flawed scheme from the start and the government are simply saying it will cut x amount of the welfare bill, when in fact it will result in more unemployed as companies that sign up will reduce staff, so they can take advantage of the free labour. Its a con, Its medieval and its bound to fail by increasing the welfare bill.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

In their desperation to bully those who are unable to work into work, the Tories have exposed not only DWP staff to possible prosecution under health and safety and other legislation, they are also exposing employers to prosecution under compulsory insurance legislation. Anyone employing others must, by law, hold a valid Certificate of Employer's Liability Insurance. Failure to do so carries a maximum penalty, on conviction, of a fine of up to £70,000.

Some DWP staff have been found to be telling claimants not disclose health conditions, age and other relevant information to prospective employers which would expose not only the claimant to possible prosecution for Attempted Fraud by Failing to Disclose Information, but expose the employer to prosecution, as described above, as insurer would need to know of any employees with medical conditions that may influence how they assess the risk and calculate premiums. Potentially, it could invalidate the employer's insurance.

It really does lead me to the conclusion that the government has well and truly lost the plot.

[labman]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

The thing is, would any other be any better? :beagle:

[wales01man]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

Read lots of comments on a newspaper website many said the same thing on this subject the problem is there is not enough jobs for everyone sort that then make other decisions about those claiming benefits who are able to work.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

There has already been a United Nations investigation into the Bedroom Tax in which it was slammed as being in breach of Human Rights conventions and the Working Capability Assessment is now under UN scrutiny, too. Don't be surprised if IDS's willy-waving, alluded to in this thread, gets put under the UN microscope and slammed as slave labour, something that is banned under international conventions, both ECHR and UNUDHR. And just to add to this, we have George Osborne announcing he is taking the EU to court to protect bankers' bonuses.

There is a saying "Before the gods destroy you, they make you go mad." Even if the gods are currently working on that, IDS and Boy George Osborne seem to be making a pretty good job of destroying the Tories and their credibility.

One can say something with reasonable certainty - it would be impossible for Gideon Osbourne and Iain Duncan Smith to join the brain drain.

Their brains were almost completely drained when their mothers' waters broke.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

The thing is, would any other be any better? :beagle:

It is the current system of government that is broken, LM. Getting rid of the whip system is a start and abolishing political parties is the ultimate goal. At present, vested interests can manipulate government policy and laws, simply by funding political parties and reminding them of their financial support for their beliefs. Getting rid of the whip system and political parties and having 650 individual MPs each voting as per their constituents' wishes might sound unattainable, but it is attainable if the people put increasing pressure on MPs to change. Eventually, something will give and it will be the MPs. They conveniently forget they are servants of the people, not their masters. Government by consensus is what we should have and expect to have, not the elected dictatorships we have endured up to now.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

One can say something with reasonable certainty - it would be impossible for Gideon Osbourne and Iain Duncan Smith to join the brain drain.

Their brains were almost completely drained when their mothers' waters broke.

So cutting, yet so true.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Jobless 'To Be Forced To Work' For Benefits

I know it's not quite what is being mentioned here, but there are people within my family who are aged 20 and never have any intention of working. They are living far more comfortably on benefits than we do, and we claim none. That cannot be right.

If you are entitled to benefits why not claim them?

Totally agree with enaid and Sapph..it's time the 'money for nothing' culture ended.

Especially for Members of Parliament.

Some, of course, work remarkably hard. Some actually represent the interests of their constituents and try to get problems resolved.

But there are others, like the Lib-Dem snollygoster who represents my area, who seem to do bugger all other than sit on a bench in the House of Commons, feed their faces at the taxpayers' expense and troop through the lobby directed to them by the Party Whips.

He has such a low profile in Westminster that I call him The Invisible Man.