Ireland Bailout

[pompeyfaith]

What is everyones view on this because i cant help thinking that our government is becoming skewed in that on one hand we are in great debt ourselves and on the other we can afford to lend billions to Ireland confused just a bit

[Jester]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Well, considering that George Osborne held up Ireland as a 'shining example' to us all not two years ago, it does not fill me with great enthusiasm that he has since gone on to base his 'austerity' measures for this country on the Irish system.

Probably an indication of where the UK will soon be if we keep blindly following the mathematically-challenged Osborne's economic policies !!

Also, remember that the UK banks have a great deal invested in the Irish banks so there is another banking disaster on the horizon !!

[EXC]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Apparently it is German banks that the Irish banks are most indebted to, so one would expect the Germans to at least make a significant contribution to the bail out.

[Sapphire]

Re: Ireland Bailout

This country is 'allegedly' on its knees, we are 'allegedly' skint yet we are bailing out other countries to the tune of billions, this has to stop, we cannot keep being seen as the cash cow for other countries round the world, when we have people in our own country without jobs, who cannot afford to heat their homes, pay their rents and feed their families.

We need to stop all these handouts alongside of many of the other handouts we give in this country. We need to close the borders and stop the freeloaders taking from us and sending it home to their families.

We're handing over something like £6 billion to bail the Irish banks out yet I wouldn't mind betting they will still pay out bonuses. This is just plain wrong, we've bailed out our own banks for what good its doing us. I'd like to see the many struggling owners of businesses in this country ask for help from the government, I bet you a penny to a pound of sh ite that they get told to feck off. Yet its institutions like the banks who are making other businesses who are the majority employers struggle and have to lay the workforce off. Yet you see the big companies like Vodaphone negotiate a reduction in their Corporation Tax, how fair is that. We have a Corporation Tax bill, I wouldn't dare ring the tax people and ask for a reduction for fear of being laughed at and told to go forth and multiply.

So what I would like to see, is all these banks and companies that have been bailed out and had their Corporation Tax negotiated down be stopped from paying out any bonuses at all until they have paid back every penny, then and only then could they start giving bonuses again, and if they disobey that ruling or work out a way round it by giving shares etc then the companies and the people in charge be prosecuted for fraudulently obtaining monies.

But hey I am talking about Utopia here arn't I.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Excellent post Sapphire and that is exactly how i feel one wonders if we are in as much debt as they say we are and using it as a smokescreen to justify the cuts

[middenmess]

Re: Ireland Bailout

With all these 'bail out' disasters,does any money actually change hands so to speak or is it just another case of 'creating' money.

Economics are a mystery to me in theses cases--if it is actual money that physically/electronically moves then where exactly have the government got c.6billion pounds deposited?

What sort of hyped up interest from this 'iffy/unsound' loan/bail out is likely to be asked for over what this money was earning for this country from lying in a bank vault--always assuming that the government have all these spare billions hanging around?

Shakes head and wonders if any upright and professional DCA's would be involved if the Irish Government default.

Wonders if the Irish banks approached 'pay day loans' for a quote??

[enaid]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Well from what I can gather we NEED them more than they NEED us lol

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Ireland Bailout

please explain enaid becaure if we need an island a lot smaller than us we are doomed

[Jester]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Apparently it is German banks that the Irish banks are most indebted to, so one would expect the Germans to at least make a significant contribution to the bail out.

Whilst that maybe true, the UK Banks are truly into the Irish Banks for a lot of money nevertheless. Given the parlous state of our own banks, this will have serious ramifications for us here in the UK.


Banking crisis
But the second problem relates less to the economy than to the banks themselves. Irish banks are in a desperate state. They were more exposed than most when the financial crisis hit after years of reckless lending, and so were more deeply in a hole than most.

The government then took a step that may have made matters even worse - by guaranteeing all money on deposit at the banks. It means the government was required to keep propping them up with more and more payments. It was when Anglo Irish asked for another £10 billion (on top of the £20 billion already poured in) that the crisis hit.

But it isn't just the Irish government that's so over-exposed. British banks have lent an astounding £140 billion to Irish banks. Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds (the two banks largely in the hands of the taxpayer) have a collective £85 billion on loan to these banks.

Bank failures?
At the moment, there is no guarantee that these banks are immune from failure, and if they were to fail, there's very little chance the Irish government is in a position to prop them up.

If the Irish banks were to fail, it would have a catastrophic effect on UK banks, and you have to ask yourself whether the UK government is in any position to pick up the pieces if that was to happen.

The UK is already suffering problems of its own. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has slashed its forecast for growth in the UK in 2011 to 1.7%. With the knock -on effect of the Irish crisis, we could see this fragile recovery under even more threat.

At the moment the Irish books are under examination and the rescue packages are being considered, so the extent of the impact is not 100% certain.

What we do know is that the UK banks are going to take some sort of hit, so at best we can expect the mortgage market to stay in the doldrums, and at worst we will need another bail-out. Meanwhile, the UK will be forced to spend a huge amount of money bailing out Ireland, meaning more spending cuts and tax hikes on the horizon.

Source: What the Irish financial woes mean for you - Walletpop UK

[Guest]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Well, considering that George Osborne held up Ireland as a 'shining example' to us all not two years ago, it does not fill me with great enthusiasm that he has since gone on to base his 'austerity' measures for this country on the Irish system.

Probably an indication of where the UK will soon be if we keep blindly following the mathematically-challenged Osborne's economic policies !!

Also, remember that the UK banks have a great deal invested in the Irish banks so there is another banking disaster on the horizon !!

George Osborne has been in the job six months and you have already written him off. Let us not forget, it was your beloved Labour that got us into this mess and your beloved Socialists, Europe-wide who perpetuate the mess.

United Kingdom trade with Ireland is greater than our exports to China, India, Brazil and Russia combined, thus in short, we need them to keep spending money with us and if they don't have it, they cannot.

Of course, that is not to say that it is a good idea, or I support it, but let's give the boy a chance. He inherited a poisoned chalice from thirteen years of Gordon Brown's criminal mis-management of our economy.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Ireland Bailout

And George Osborne is a multi millionaire just like a lot of the other central government MP's and he talks the talk but does not walk the walk.

I thing this is more the reason why

IRELAND

The mild south is especially attractive as a retirement haven and, for a select group like writers and painters, it is a zero tax haven, though if you lack artistic talent there are other ways to qualify and receive your income, profits, pension or social security check at a zero tax rate.
An Irish company which is beneficially owned by non residents of Ireland, does not do business in Ireland and which is managed and controlled from outside Ireland (i.e. has non resident directors), will not be taxable in Ireland. As Ireland is not an obvious tax haven, an Irish non resident company provides an excellent low profile tax avoidance vehicle. For a time during the early 1980 this was also possible in the UK. The EU objected to a developed country permitting such tax avoidance and so the legislation was changed. In time, the situation will also change for Ireland as it is now approaching the EU economic norm in many areas. Currently, Irish non resident companies enjoy huge popularity.
Legislation introduce in l995 now requires the disclosure to the tax authorities of: The address of the company's principal place of business which by definition must be outside Ireland, and; The name and address of any individuals who have "control" of the company. These requirements have tax implications for both the beneficial owners of the company and the company.
Ireland has an extensive network of tax treaties and many of these provide for the exchange of information. Details of the directors and of the registered shareholders already appeared at the Companies Registry and now are also registered with the Tax Department -- increasing the likelihood of those details being passed to your home tax authorities. Even if no tax treaty is in place the Irish authorities tend to be compliant in meeting requests for information from overseas tax authorities.
Most onshore countries have provisions within their tax legislation whereby any company, no matter where it is incorporated, which is managed or controlled from within their jurisdiction can be considered tax resident and taxable on worldwide income at local rates. Thus, for example, any offshore company which had UK based directors would be deemed by the UK Inland Revenue as being tax resident in the UK and subject to UK tax on its worldwide income. Most other onshore countries have similar provisions within their tax legislation. Therefore, to guarantee that confidentiality can be retained and in order to help rebut any suggestion that the company may be tax resident in the home country of the promoters or any other onshore jurisdiction, the management of an Irish company should be based somewhere fiscally neutral. This will normally necessitate employing the services of professional third party directors.
Most countries have Controlled Foreign Corporation legislation and other anti-avoidance provisions which may allow them to tax the profits of the company as though those profits had been distributed to the shareholders whether they had been so distributed or not. For example, if it is revealed that the Irish company has UK resident shareholders then the UK Revenue may seek to tax the shareholders as though they had actually received the profits of the company even if this was not the case.
The use of nominee shareholders would not remove the obligation to reveal the beneficial ownership as the nominee agreements make it clear that the real control of the shares rests with the beneficial owner and not with the registered nominee shareholder. The shares may, however be held by a discretionary trust so that the only detail required to be revealed to the Irish Revenue authorities is the name and address of the trustee rather than the client's own details. Many clients are not prepared to use a discretionary trust for security and cost reasons and so Ireland has become less popular with those seeking a low cost and private company registration solution.
For individuals, the principal advantage of the Irish Republic is that there's a clear distinction between a person's domicile and physical residency for tax purposes. In effect, a "foreign" person resident in Ireland need only be taxed on remitted income back to Ireland. If a suitable distinction is made between capital and subsequent income from capital (i.e. interest) before taking up permanent residence it may even be possible to live in Ireland almost completely tax free.
Another benefit of Ireland over most other potential tax havens is that all permanent residents will be able to benefit from Ireland's sophisticated and extensive double taxation treaty network. Third party investigating tax authorities will be bound by the terms and conditions of the applicable tax treaty and clients will be protected against the almost ubiquitous reverse burden of proof employed by other developed nations. These basic advantages combined with other domestic tax breaks have resulted in Ireland having a significant and wealthy expatriate community.
Entry clearance criteria are very similar to those of the United Kingdom with the possibility of Irish passports for those willing to invest IRL 1,000,000.00.
While the distinctions drawn between domicile and residence in Ireland for tax purposes are well know (i.e. that non-Irish nationals resident in the Republic are only taxed on external passive income when directly remitted to the country), what is not as well known is the fact that it is also an ideal base for working "international" consultants. Under the 1994 Finance Act, inducements were introduced not to tax Irish based (i.e. resident) executives working on behalf of their employer outside of the Republic on such foreign generated income even if remitted. The rule are complex, but very real advantages are available.

[Jester]

Re: Ireland Bailout

George Osborne has been in the job six months and you have already written him off. Let us not forget, it was your beloved Labour that got us into this mess and your beloved Socialists, Europe-wide who perpetuate the mess.

United Kingdom trade with Ireland is greater than our exports to China, India, Brazil and Russia combined, thus in short, we need them to keep spending money with us and if they don't have it, they cannot.

Of course, that is not to say that it is a good idea, or I support it, but let's give the boy a chance. He inherited a poisoned chalice from thirteen years of Gordon Brown's criminal mis-management of our economy.

Dan - You're a good bloke and very helpful/knowledgeable, but I think it is fair to say that you and I will never see eye-to-eye on politics

All I have pointed out is that he held the Irish solution to their economic crisis as a 'shining beacon' to behold less than two years ago, and now has based the austerity measures he has just introduced in the UK, on the same ideals and maths. Ireland now has to be bailed out (so that worked well then). 'My beloved' (not sure where you get that idea from) Labour has had nothing to do with how the Republic set their financial policies (unless we now govern the Republic as well and nobody has told me about it).

Neither did I give up on George Osborne after 6 months. I've NEVER had faith in anything the guy says because his sums simply don't add up. It's not just me that says that, many very learned financial 'thinktanks' have said the same (Institute of Fiscal Studies being the most recent to say so as I recall). That he's based the UK austerity measures on a system that has clearly failed to work in the Republic just scares me even more.

If he can solve the crisis, then good luck to him. I hope he succeeds. But that does not change the fact that I am entitled to an opinion (or have the Tories made that illegal now ?), and my opinion is that he simply does not have the first idea of what to do.

[EXC]

Re: Ireland Bailout

So what I would like to see, is all these banks and companies that have been bailed out and had their Corporation Tax negotiated down .....

One of the main reasons for Ireland's parlous state is it's extremely low corporation tax which was reduced to 12.5 percent in an effort to attract big businesses to the country. While it might have lured in the likes of Barclays who base their UK PPI business there (to avoid UK corporation tax at more than double Ireland's rate), all the existing Irish businesses now pay far less to the Irish exchequer than they did.

This risky strategy is predicated entirely on growth and volume and clearly only works in the boom times.

[Sapphire]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Wouldnt it be better though to make the big companies pay the same rate as the small companies.

[middenmess]

Re: Ireland Bailout

Wouldnt it be better though to make the big companies pay the same rate as the small companies.

Why introduce common sense into their economic strategy?