• Welcome to the LegalBeagles Consumer and Legal Forum.
    Please Register to get the most out of the forum. Registration is free and only needs a username and email address.
    REGISTER
    Please do not post your full name, reference numbers or any identifiable details on the forum.

The £600m RIP-off wills and probate solicitors

Collapse
Loading...
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The £600m RIP-off wills and probate solicitors


    Banks and solicitors are overcharging consumers small fortunes for sorting out wills and small estates. Tony Levene meets Britain's first 'probate broker'
    Just because you're dead does not stop banks and lawyers making a fortune from you. Each year Britain's high street banks and solicitors pick up a massive £1.25bn in fees for sorting out wills. Between them, they have 88% of the market for dealing with that last testament.
    But according to management consultant* Adam Walker, 49, around half of that £1.25bn is "blatant overcharging".
    "It's a £600m a year rip-off, where banks and solicitors are charging large fortunes to sort out small estates. It's worse because they prey on grief-stricken families who are not in a mood to argue, or shop around," he says.
    And Walker should know. His experience* with a London law firm last year, when his father died, caused him so much anguish that he decided on a solution – he has set up what he says is the UK's first "probate broker" – probate* is the legal term for sorting out a will (see What is probate, below). His brokerage aims to find the best deal for families who need to arrange processing of a will.
    Walker's father died last May leaving all his £550,000 estate to his widow. There were no other bequests or inheritance tax to pay. The estate consisted* of the £300,000 family home, a £200,000 holding in Alliance, an investment trust, and four savings accounts worth £50,000.
    Adam and his brother, who were both named executors in the father's will, thought the cost of sorting this out would be "no more than a few thousand, at worst".
    But there was a third executor in the will – a firm of London solicitors. And they could charge "professional fees".
    "I won't name them – I've since *discovered they are no better, or worse, than any other. But I thought it essential to know, upfront, what their fees would be – after all, whatever they charged would come out of the money left to my mother," he says.
    It took him a lot of pressure to gain information. "The firm refused to give a quote, basically using the 'how long is a piece of string?' line. But eventually the lawyer said she would charge 1.5% of the estate, plus £325 an hour, plus £20 a letter, plus disbursements such as court fees plus VAT – the likely total would be £25,850. We were shocked – it was more than twice as much as they paid for their house, and this was a very simple estate," he says
    He suggested to the firm of solicitors that the family do the basic work (he'd bought a do-it-yourself probate book for £15) and get the lawyers to check it as a way of costcutting.
    That suggestion fell on deaf ears.
    Walker then asked if he could look for alternatives. "The lawyer said that as the firm had been appointed, it had to act for us. In any case, it claimed a bank would have been even costlier. But I discovered anyone – solicitor or otherwise - can renounce an executor appointment. I also found an online probate firm which quoted £6,300 – some 75% less."
    Walker then moved from "angry to apoplectic". He told the lawyer the job was hers at £6,300 and if she did not like it, she should resign – if she refused, he would be a "hostile client". "I threatened to ask the Law Society for an independent assessment of the fees." She then resigned as executor.
    "Lawyers and banks make you feel guilty even if you have the strength to challenge them after a death in the family," Walker says. "The problem is, so many lawyers and banks offer will-writing as a loss leader and put themselves in as executors so they can make a fortune from the probate process after the death when the family is vulnerable."
    Walker did the probate work on a DIY basis – you don't legally need a lawyer. "It wasn't that easy, but my secretary helped with the paperwork. It took her 25 hours, five less than the lawyer quoted, and I do not pay her £325 an hour. The original charge was a big try-on."
    His solution was, with £2m backing from a private investor, setting up Final Duties – which he says is the first ever "probate broker". He claims he can typically halve solicitor fees and cut bank costs back by 75%.
    "You come to us and we give you a quote. All our work is via solicitors but, because we know the market, you don't overpay. If you accept, you pay us £295 – and we use our experience to help get rid of unwanted executors. We've done nearly 100 so far – I'm surprised no one has done this before."
    Final Duties's record includes:
    • A South Wales man, who left £1m in a bank account and nothing else, would have been charged £40,000 plus VAT by Royal Bank of Scotland. Final Duties ensured the bank resigned and found a lawyer for £3,200.
    • A Devon man appointed Midland Bank (now HSBC) as his executor when he married in 1954. He left £300,000 – the bank wanted £12,000. Walker did it for £2,800 after securing the bank's resignation as an auditor.
    • A London man was quoted £19,000 by a bank to administer his father's estate. The bank refused to reduce the fee even when the son offered to do some work. Final Duties quoted £7,245.
    "Lawyers lost out when they lost the conveyancing monopoly. But here the margins are much fatter. It's time to change," Walker adds.
    What is probate?

    Probate is the legal process that takes place after someone's death.
    It usually involves proving that the deceased's will is valid, identifying the deceased person's property and having its value appraised, paying any outstanding debts and taxes including inheritance tax, and distributing the property according to the will or, sometimes, according to law.
    The process tends to last several months and can sometimes take many years where the estate is complicated.
    Those with the legal duty to carry this are called "executors" and will be named in the will. If there is no will – dying intestate – the courts will appoint administrators.
    If the deceased person left a small amount of money (usually £5,000 or less), it may not be necessary to obtain a grant of probate or letters of administration to withdraw money from the deceased's account with a bank or financial institution.
    This can be useful if money is needed from the deceased's estate to pay for immediate expenses such as the funeral or house insurance.
    Each bank or financial institution has its own rules on what proof it requires, and how much money it will release to the person acting in the estate of the deceased.
    Probate best buys

    Banks and most solicitors nearly always charge by a percentage of the estate's value – irrespective of the work involved.
    Many banks charge a flat 4% (plus VAT) of what is left in the will. Barclays has a more complicated scale – its fees are 4.5% of the first £100,000, 3.5% of the next £400,000 and 1.5% of anything over £500,000.
    In addition, it charges £400 for every beneficiary and £75 for each asset (or 10% for assets under £750).
    Solicitors who charge according to the value of the estate, rather than the work involved, usually bill for around two thirds of what a bank will cost.
    These fixed sums can occasionally cut the costs if the will is very complex – such as very many bequests or a large number of difficult-to-value assets, but generally it works against the family's interest.
    But there are alternatives.
    Firstly there is Final Duties, profiled above, who can be contacted at finalduties.co.uk or 0800 731 8722.
    The Share Centre, a low-cost stockbroker, has a plan that promises "financial certainty" to grieving relatives faced with winding up the estate of a deceased person.
    Instead of handing the work to solicitors, who can charge by the hour leading to a potentially open-ended bill, The Share Centre has a tie-up with probate specialist Kings Court Trust Corporation.
    This will offer a fixed-fee service, based on the amount of work required, with the bill clearly shown upfront during a no-obligation meeting.
    Some solicitors feature fixed fees. Birkett Long in Chelmsford, Essex, offers probate on an estate worth less than £300,000 for under £600 while The Probate Bureau in Ware, Hertfordshire has a fixed-price promise.
    Families can reduce bills by doing some of the work themselves where possible.



    guardian.co.uk © Guardian News & Media Limited 2009 | Use of this content is subject to our Terms & Conditions | More Feeds



    More...

  • #2
    Re: The £600m RIP-off

    Yet another proven rip off and once again targeted at people who are probably at their lowest and unable as stated above " to argue, or shop around".
    I know a few on here have been through bereavement quite recently and have had letters from DWP that were upsetting enough to deal with.
    To think that once again the Banks and Solicitors jump on the bandwagon and rob us again even after were gone makes me sick.
    So maybe the alternatives should be investigated and tested (if possible), or at least have a look into the actual charges. A percentage seems very unfair to me TBH as it will only involve the same work regardless.
    I have got this info on understanding wills in PIL, just thought if you have or are thinking of making a will it may help.
    http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/willsguide.pdf

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The £600m RIP-off

      Making a will


      By making a will you can decide what happens to your property and possessions after your death. Although you do not have to make one by law, it is the best way to make sure your estate is passed on to family and friends exactly as you wish. If you die without a will, your assets may be distributed according to the law rather than your wishes.


      Making a will : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The £600m RIP-off

        You can do it yourself too, just a little time and patience I think, here's how.

        Where there's a will there's a way

        What exactly does an executor of the will have to do? Alan Wilson explains the vocabulary of sorting out estates and how you should go about it



        You have suffered a bereavement and the last thing you can contemplate is winding up the estate. But do not rush to hand the job to professionals; they can be very expensive and it is perfectly possible though time-consuming to sort it out yourself.
        Someone who winds up an estate is called a "personal representative". As a personal representative, you carry out instructions in the will or if there is no will you follow the rules of intestacy.
        You will pay taxes due or apply for tax refunds, clear bills and debts, claim on life insurance policies, list the assets and transfer them to the heirs and beneficiaries.
        You need a grant of representation from the probate registry to become a personal representative, which will give you legal authority to take control of the assets.
        There are two situations in which you can apply to be a personal representative. The first is if you are named as "executor" in a will and in this case the grant is also known as "probate".
        In the second case, you can apply if the named executors cannot or will not do the job or if there is no valid will. In this case, you are called the "administrator" and the grant is called "letters of administration".
        The person who inherits the whole or the residue of an estate has priority over others who apply to be administrator.
        Small estates
        Of course, you may not need a grant if the estate is small. Banks and building societies may release small amounts to next of kin without a grant if total savings and investments are below £5,000.
        You may not need a grant if everything is held in joint names; it automatically goes to the surviving joint owners. But you will need one to sell or transfer a property held solely in the name of the person who died.
        Naming executors
        Solicitors, accountants and banks are often named in wills as executors. They can charge 2% to 3% or more of the value of the estate - and sometimes a much larger percentage of small estates.
        Heirs and beneficiaries face an uphill battle in challenging hefty fees or getting rid of inefficient professional executors appointed in a will. It is better to name your spouse or other family member or friends when you write a will, though ask them first.
        Most wills name more than one executor, but you could decide that just one of you acts as personal representative while the others either reserve or renounce their rights. Alternatively you can have up to four people acting as representatives.
        In practice, non-professional personal representatives can do the form-filling themselves. Only pay for professional help for advice on things you are unsure about and for help with complications, such as a disputed will or setting up a trust for a beneficiary.
        As far as possible, agree the costs in advance; retaining ultimate control can help speed things up and keep costs down.
        How to execute a will
        First get details of what is in the estate from bank statements, deposit account books, share certificates, insurance policies, property deeds. Value possessions at what you can sell them for, not the higher insurance/replacement value.
        Next, apply for the grant. There will be forms to fill in.
        You will need to supply the death certificate and the original of the will (if there is a will) and pay certain fees: £130 for estates over £5,000 (nothing for estates below this) plus £1 for each sealed copy of the grant: you need one copy for every organisation that holds assets.
        You will have to attend an interview and swear an oath at the probate registry.
        Finally, once you have the grant, send a sealed copy to each institution holding money or any other asset and ask for it to be released.
        Once you have control of all the assets, you can sell anything that needs to be sold (such as a property), pay bills and debts and distribute what is left to beneficiaries.
        You can take any expenses you incur as personal representative but you cannot charge for your time, though some people make provision in the will to pay an executor. A good idea is to open a separate executor's bank account to pay money in and out.
        Do be aware that getting the grant can take around six weeks from when you apply, longer if there are complications.
        Overall, winding up an estate may take quite a few months, but it is an achievable task - even if you approach it only one day at a time.
        Useful links
        For addresses and forms, go to the forms and guidance section at courtservice.gov.uk. The probate registry can advise you through the process.
        You may have to pay part of any inheritance tax due before the grant is given: see inlandrevenue.gov.uk/cto.
        Different procedures and legal language apply in Scotland. For information, go to the publications and leaflets section at scotcourts.gov.uk.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The £600m RIP-off

          This is most useful and so far the best info I have read. Thanks very much

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The £600m RIP-off

            Are you still active on this site? Great info. Thank you

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The £600m RIP-off

              Yes our Enaid is still active onsite - but jusr away for a few days, thankyou for your comments she will appreciate this.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The £600m RIP-off

                We have just obtained Letters of Administration after the death of the mother inlaw not Probate as the total value of the estate was below the figure for Probate,
                Dealing with the Probate registry was fairl simple,once we ound all the assets and debts filled in one HMRC form and one Probate form very easy a short wait until Letters of Administration arrived just a case now of final accounts and distibute the estate,
                The hardest part was the Bank although they have a bearevement department thats there to help had to go through several departments this took the most time.
                We claimed all allowable expenses Petrol for trips to solicitor for swearing oaths and their cost,
                fuel for clearing property.trips to banjkand post office and all postal and stationery costs, phone cals its been a bit frustrating when you have to keep getting answers to letters but it sorted itself ,pity those you deal with werent a bit more efficient,
                Before we decided to do it ourselfs we were quoted around 2 grand plus vat and extras it cost us £360 pound and about 12 hours on the paperwork itself,
                If anyone wants to pay solicitors fair enough but as we found its quite easy and you would no doubt have to answer and write letters to a solicitor and have to spend time finding things for them ,
                Yo conclude as with a lot of things you need to do in life the internet provides so much info all government and legal stuff is well covered use it its the best tool there is

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The £600m RIP-off

                  Agreed
                  I did a DIY probate after my husband died, it quite simple and saves solicitors costs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The £600m RIP-off

                    I have dealt with a small estate (which included a Trust, something that solicitors normally view as a licence to print money), and it cost virtually nothing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The £600m RIP-off

                      Tuttsi, thanks very much for responding. I am not particularly well acquainted with 'social' forums, so finding this site thru internet searches on probate is good.
                      Some may think I am jumping the gun here, however, I find myself a long way from what was once home, with pending issues in the UK. These shall unfortunately involve, given my present understanding, contesting a Will/Probate as there appear to be some extraordinarily large differences of values and chattel to be distributed.
                      So I am exploring what avenues are available, and the costs, in contesting a Will that has a solicitor named as executor, and who wrote the Will.
                      You folks have include some useful links that I can slowly explore.
                      I expect I shall return. Love and pats to the beagles and a sniff from my chocolate lab.
                      BTW what does the car sticker look like?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The £600m RIP-off

                        The car sticker is great! A must have optional extra for any car, new or old.

                        I have two on my rear windscreen - it was supposed to be one, but got it off centre, so had to put a second to balance it. I now think they were designed to be twins.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The £600m RIP-off

                          I tried to reply and although it "auto saved" I have lost it?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The £600m RIP-off

                            tee hee - occupational hazard - you'll have to write it again lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The £600m RIP-off

                              OR - (sorry didn't mean to be flippant) it might just be that you got accidentally signed out and the autosave will re-appear next time you sign in ( or you could try refreshing)

                              Comment

                              View our Terms and Conditions

                              LegalBeagles Group uses cookies to enhance your browsing experience and to create a secure and effective website. By using this website, you are consenting to such use.To find out more and learn how to manage cookies please read our Cookie and Privacy Policy.

                              If you would like to opt in, or out, of receiving news and marketing from LegalBeagles Group Ltd you can amend your settings at any time here.


                              If you would like to cancel your registration please Contact Us. We will delete your user details on request, however, any previously posted user content will remain on the site with your username removed and 'Guest' inserted.
                              Working...
                              X