Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

[Unregistered]

Hi there,

I wonder if anybody could help, my grandmother passed away 4 months ago and my Uncle administered her estate.

My Grandmother and I had a few conversations over the years about her wishes and she asked me to get her a Will. I did this for her and she told me that my Uncle would then deal with it.

Since she passed, he has divided the Estate but not offered any information on how this was calculated. Also, when clearing her belongings my Uncle produced a folder with the Will I had bought for her and then put it in a bin bag...which insinuated that it had not been completed. We have also recently discovered that 2 of her sons did not receive an inheritance.

It has left us in a very difficult situation as we don't know if this was her wish or his...? I was very close to my Grandmother and she told me that she had X amount of money which is a lot more than the figure verbally disclosed to another member of the family.

The whole situation has been dealt with in a very underhanded manner and the lack of transparency is making us suspect potential foul play.

There are plans to arrange a meeting with him to try and settle these concerns amicably, but I would like to know where my family stand legally if he refuses to cooperate. There is a very high chance that he did not arrange a Will for her - but can we request an inventory of accounts? Is there a legal route for this if he refuses to supply any information?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Amethyst]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

I think firstly you need to find out if there was a Will ( http://legalbeagles.info/library/wil...cating-a-will/ ) as if there wasn't intestacy rules kick in ( http://legalbeagles.info/library/pro...testacy-rules/ )

Tagging [MENTION=85500]Peridot[/MENTION] to look in for you xx

( Once you've registered you'll be able to reply to this post - then I'll get it moved down to the WIlls & Probate section of the forum so you get more help )

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Thank you Amethyst

I am 99% certain that she has died intestate, but will know for certain shortly.

Does this mean that he would have had to apply to the court for a grant of letters of administration - can we ask to see this Grant?

Also he has told other family members that she verbally expressed her wishes - does this still mean she has died intestate and intestacy rules need to be followed?

She told me that the value of her estate was approx. £45k (he has causally mentioned £26k )- not sure if the value will have an effect on how things should have been administered - any guidance would be appreciated xx many, many thanks

[Amethyst]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

If she had no will then I'm afraid your Uncle has no say in it and if she told him she wanted it all to go to Donald Trump it would be of no consequence and instestacy rules would apply.

The person making the will (the testator or testatrix) must have been over 18 when they made the Will. The only exception to this is if the person is a soldier on actual military service, a mariner or a seaman at sea.

There are then five formalities that need to be followed when the Will is created:-

• The Will must be in writing – handwritten or typed, preferably in the same ink with no amendments

• The Will must be signed – usually at the end of the Will either a signature or a mark is acceptable provided this is explained. All pages of the Will should still be securely fastened together.

• An intention to create a Will – use of an attestation clause will demonstrate this. If there is no attestation clause then an affidavit may be required confirming the belief of the testator’s intention to create a Will.

• The testator must have signed or placed their mark on the Will in front of two adult witnesses – generally at the end of the Will.

• The two witnesses must sign or acknowledge the testator’s signature or mark. NB If any beneficiaries or their spouses or civil partners witness a Will then the beneficiary will not be entitled to any legacy due to them under the Will.

2 of her sons did not receive an inheritance

Under intestacy rules it seems extremely likely they would have been entitled to a share of the estate.

How many children did she have, and do they all survive her?

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

This is very helpful. Thank you Amethyst. Hopefully she hasn't left her worldly goods to Donald Trump but we will soon find out. Thanks again.

As there is a discrepancy in the actual value of her estate - - if he doesn't co-operate amicably - is there a legal route to request an inventory of her accounts? Does he have a legal obligation to provide these?

[Amethyst]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

You can request copies of the letters of representation and I think you can ask for copies of the estate accounts ( well, someone who would be a beneficiary - so your Dad? ) [MENTION=85500]Peridot[/MENTION] knows far more than I so when she is back in things should be made a bit clearer xxxx

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Under intestacy rules it seems extremely likely they would have been entitled to a share of the estate.

How many children did she have, and do they all survive her?

Sorry - Just noticed your question. She had 7 children and they all survived her.

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

You can request copies of the letters of representation and I think you can ask for copies of the estate accounts ( well, someone who would be a beneficiary - so your Dad? ) @Peridot knows far more than I so when she is back in things should be made a bit clearer xxxx

Thank you Amethyst, this is very helpful. My mum was a beneficiary and it would be her and 2 other brothers making the request. xxxx

[Peridot]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Hi DeeBee779,

So if I understand it correctly there may not be a Will, but hopefully you'll find this out following the meeting with the other members of the family.

As Amethyst said, if there is no Will then no-one is able to make any decision about what Grandmother would have wanted. The intestacy rules are very strict and have to be followed. In a nutshell if your grandmother had children they inherit the estate in equal shares. If any of her children have pre-deceased her leaving children of their own then those children (your grandmother's grandchildren) would inherit their parent's share equally between them.

A Grant of Letters of Administration (where there is no Will) or Grant of Probate (where there is a Will) would not be necessary if the estate value was below £15k but as the estate value is between £26k and £45k then a Grant should be obtained. This then gives the person appointed administrator the authority to deal with the estate. They shouldn't be doing anything before they obtain the Grant. In the case of executors appointed under a Will it is the Will that gives them the authority so no need to wait for the Grant.

Hopefully you'll get some answers at the meeting but pop back if you need any more pointers.

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Thank you very much Peridot - this is very helpful and explains everything.

Much appreciated.

[Peridot]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Hi again,
I should probably say if there is a Will it may not be necessary to get a Grant of Probate depending on the assets your grandmother had and whether banks etc insist upon it. However if there is no Will it will be necessary.

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

I think a way he may have gotten around this was by opening a joint account - I only found out last night that her main account was in joint names with my Uncle. He arranged this when my granddad died apparently. Would a grant of probate / letter of administration therefore be necessary, do you think?

[Peridot]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Hi again,
It depends what assets she has after the half share of the joint account is included in the estate values. If they are below £15k then you won't need a Grant.
The joint account passes by survivorship straight to the other co-owner (your uncle) and isn't included in any distribution of her assets to family unfortunately.

[DeeBee779]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Hi again,
It depends what assets she has after the half share of the joint account is included in the estate values. If they are below £15k then you won't need a Grant.
The joint account passes by survivorship straight to the other co-owner (your uncle) and isn't included in any distribution of her assets to family unfortunately.

Thanks Peridot,

He told my nan that it was 'just easier' to have a joint account so he could pay in her pension and get her money whenever she needed (she didn't like banks and never used a cash machine). As far as I know he didn't actually use the account for his own personal use. However, all credits would have been cash (as her pension was paid into a post office account and withdrew immediately). Does this mean that he is legally the owner of all her money?

[Peridot]

Re: Beneficiaries of an Estate without a will

Hi DeeBee779,
Technically yes. Sorry but legally as co-owner of the joint asset (the bank account) it automatically passes to him.
Not knowing the family situation I couldn't say whether he would be persuaded to be reasonable about this or not I'm afraid. Another thing for the discussion.