Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

[peter p]

My Sister is in a care home with severe dementia and not capable of handling her own affairs. Her 3 siblings, all adults, have been to a solicitor to enable them to handle Mums affairs. Mum is widowed owns her house outright and due to a disastrous attempt to live in France a few years ago, does not have a large amount of savings, if any.
I have not had sight of the paperwork yet but my Niece has rung me tonight sounding very worried.
First the solicitor wrote to me and one of my sisters asking if we had any objections or knew any reason why My Niece and nephews should not handle her affairs.We were all OK with that. It seems now they have a solicitors bill of almost £1700 and rising and are now being asked for a £200 bond and also all three are paid £350 a year for handling her affairs. I also believe the situation had to go before the courts. The family are having final demands for this that and the other including their mums care, have no means of paying themselves and have no access to their mothers money (if she has anything). It seems the only thing guaranteed is the property that is standing empty (uninhabited but furnished). They would like to be able to put the house up for sale after emptying it but are scared to try and do anything in case their actions are illegal because they do not have any rights to do anything.
I know the above is a bit vague at the moment but does all this sound right, especially the bond and fees for the the children handling the situation?
Can anyone advise if this sounds correct as all it seems to be doing is eating into what little would be left of their Mums assets.

[leclerc]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I am going to ask Cynthesys to look at this thread as she may be more knowledgeable on lasting power of attorneys....

[peter p]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I have just found some info regarding being an "attorney"-designated by the person while they have the mental capacity and if not they would become deputies where as they then have to pay a fee every year and submit a yearly report, so I suppose this is what has happened??

[leclerc]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

https://www.gov.uk/court-of-protection

The above link probably is better in terms of basic information....

[enaid]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Hi and welcome an awful situation and something imo if not done properly can cause lots of family tiffs.
This is the basis of the role of a deputy

Sometimes, two or more deputies are appointed. They can be asked to act together in all matters. Alternatively, they can be asked to act together and independently which means that they can act together but may also act independently if they wish.
If you are appointed as a deputy, you are entitled to have reasonable expenses paid, and may also be paid to carry out your duties.
You will have to be able to show the Office of the Public Guardian that you're acting in the best interests of the person who has lost their mental capacity. The Court can cancel your appointment if it decides that your appointment is no longer in the best interests of that person.
The Office of the Public Guardian will be responsible for supervising and supporting you.

It is the same as a LPA would have been had your sister had capacity and given her permission for the family to take over her affairs. Sadly this is not the case and so the Court of Protection oversees what happens with her finances and ensures nothing is done that is not in the best interests of your sister.
The permission from family members is the norm and the £350 per year will be the reasonable expences allowed to run her affairs ie postage phone calls etc.
Strict accounts must be kept and will have to be shown to the court on a regular basis, if anything is not right with the accounts the deputies will be called to the court to explain.

When the court has given the final paper work then the deputies will be able to access your sisters money etc, Be prepared for the banks etc to want proof of everything and I must say they not always up to speed on the process.
I don't know if the house will have to be sold but care home fees are costly and your local authority may insist if there are no ther means to pay fro the care.
Hope this helps for now, just to say imo having this overseen by the court of protection even though seems messy right now will imo save a lot of doubts and potential family upset.

Do't be frightened of ringing them for any advice they are as I have found very helpful and sympathetic.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Was going to reply to this thread, but enaid beat me to it. Thanks enaid

Just out of interest was your relative sectioned, as this used to have some bearing on who was responsible for paying the care home fees.

[peter p]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Thank you enaid for the explanation. I did advise my sister to go for POA but she kept refusing, I dont think she understood what was being said as she had been diagnosed a few months before and the onset of her dementia was rather rapid.
I wonder if you could clarify or give you opinion on the following please.
My sister had 3 children all over 35 and at the moment all 3 three deputies. All 3 of them are having a difficult time with what life is throwing at them over the past few years and this situation on top of Mums illness is getting too much for all of them.
I assume that the £350 PA would be paid out of their mums money? If so one person could take up the position, rather than all 3 so would that, money wise, be a better idea?
One main worry is the solicitors bill of £1700.00, again do the family have to pay this or would this again be put against their mums estate?
If the family decided just to "walk away" from the financially situation (they are the only beneficiaries from mums will) and let the "authorities" sort it out would this be a better idea?
Lastly is there a cap, and if so how much, that the authorities/state can take from their mums assets?
I am sorry to ask for such detailed guidance but my Niece seems to be the one doing all the work on this and I can clearly see and hear it is becoming a massive strain on her. I am willing to try and help but being the Uncle that everyone seems to turn to for help & advice is getting harder to do as I get older.

No CYNthesys she was not sectioned, doctor/carer decided she could no longer cope on her own at home, she became a danger to herself while her daughter was at work.

[enaid]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Thank you enaid for the explanation. I did advise my sister to go for POA but she kept refusing, I dont think she understood what was being said as she had been diagnosed a few months before and the onset of her dementia was rather rapid.
I wonder if you could clarify or give you opinion on the following please.
My sister had 3 children all over 35 and at the moment all 3 three deputies. All 3 of them are having a difficult time with what life is throwing at them over the past few years and this situation on top of Mums illness is getting too much for all of them.

I assume that the £350 PA would be paid out of their mums money? If so one person could take up the position, rather than all 3 so would that, money wise, be a better idea
I don't think the money is just paid to the deputies, I think that is the total they will be allowed and proof of the spending will have to go to the court along with all other spends. So if they spend nothing , then nothing will be taken from the estate. If everyone is happy to let one person deal with it and you are all sure it will not cause a rift later then fair enough.

One main worry is the solicitors bill of £1700.00, again do the family have to pay this or would this again be put against their mums estate?
I think whoever arranged for the solicitor to do this work will be responsible for the bill and this will then be reclaimed from the estate, no harm in asking him/her on the situation as to how long they will wait.

If the family decided just to "walk away" from the financially situation (they are the only beneficiaries from mums will) and let the "authorities" sort it out
would this be a better idea?one sorry
No idea on that , sorry.

Lastly is there a cap, and if so how much, that the authorities/state can take from their mums assets?
Paying for care and who should is a minefield and all depends on assessments, to make it a bit clearer there is some info from http://Alzheimers Society

I am sorry to ask for such detailed guidance but my Niece seems to be the one doing all the work on this and I can clearly see and hear it is becoming a massive strain on her. I am willing to try and help but being the Uncle that everyone seems to turn to for help & advice is getting harder to do as I get older.

No CYNthesys she was not sectioned, doctor/carer decided she could no longer cope on her own at home, she became a danger to herself while her daughter was at work.

......

[des8]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I suspect that the solicitor made application to the Court of Protection on behalf of the three siblings and his account includes the court fees (£400 per deputy? plus supervision fee?)
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/fees

[MissFM]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I think that Des' analysis is correct. We have two close relatives for whom we are deputees - one at each end of the scale (ie one young with LD who never had competence and one aged with dementia).

The statutory costs for deputees are, IMO, staggering and unjustified.

If you all trust each other and are hence able to "slim down" the deputees to one, it will reduce the costs to one third - with that proviso (that you can all be trusted), well worth doing. It's only due to a recent thread on here (thanks [MENTION=48758]stevemLS[/MENTION]) that I became aware that you didn't need to pay these costs if you'd been appointed as LPA whilst the person in question had competence - so the (hindsight!) wisdom is to appoint an LPA before it's too late.

As regards walking away and letting the council sort it, I don't think that's a good idea. Appreciated that it's extremely harrowing for your relations but it's an unavoidably harrowing time and keeping control of the finances may actually help with the stress. If your sister is (as was said above) detained for medical reasons then they shouldn't (as I understand) have to pay for her care - so it's worth fighting for a diagnosis and to obtain an order for her detention in a safe, caring and fitting environment.

Just my opinion based on experience and I hope it helps. x

[peter p]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Thank you all for the information, it has helped me understand the situation a bit better. My niece is over for lunch with us tomorrow and is bringing her paperwork with her so once I have had a read of that I will know much better where they/we stand.
Miss FM-hi again, I am not sure the exact circumstances of my Sister going into a care home, I do know her daughter was regularly called out of work to take her back home from neighbours houses and living on her own she was considered not able to cope. I will find out more tomorrow.
Thank you all again.

[peter p]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I have now had time to look at my Nieces paperwork and no wonder she was confused there is a lot to take in. It seems she is going to be the one doing most if not all the work due to being local to Mum and her house. None of them can afford the fees as they are not on good money but they may reduce it down to one attorney and split that cost.
They hope, with the necessary permission, to get the house cleared and sold as it has been not been used for over 8 months, so I think that and sorting out the bank are going to be first priority. At least then all they have to deal and concern themselves with the "estate".
Once again thank you for your guidance.

[stevemLS]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

Normally Deputies require the permission of the Court to make very significant decisions such as the sale of property unless the Order appointing them specifically authorises the sale of the property - which is possible if they told the solicitor making the application that this would be necessary.

[des8]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

As Steve says it will depend on what sort of deputy they are and what powers the court gave them

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/overview:
There are 2 types of deputy:

• property and financial affairs, eg paying bills, organising a pension
• personal welfare, eg making decisions about medical treatment and how someone is looked after

You can apply to be just one type of deputy or both. If you’re appointed, the court will tell you exactly what your responsibilities are.

[peter p]

Re: Niece and Nephews power of attorney for their Mother in care home-charges/fees.

I think it is property and financial des 8 but will recheck the papers. I will also get them to check with the courts if they have the authority to sell stevemLS. The family are concerned about it being broken into etc and/or squatters getting in afterwards, it is still furnished and the garage full with the overflow of stuff bought back from France when they downsized back to UK.