Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

[bella85]

Hi wondering if any one can help my mother in law has dementia and my husband has power of attorney she has now to go in a care home will have to use her savings to pay for this as she is above the threshold. She owns her own house and my husband would like to keep the family home which has been in the family for over 50 years is there anything we can do to stop them making us sell the property to pay for her care.

many thanks

[Amethyst]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Could the property be rented out and get enough income from it to pay the fees when combined with the savings ?

Presumably your mother-in-law lived in the house alone.

[des8]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Hi, Welcome and sorry to hear about your Mum in Law.
The following is an extract from http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/sc...documentID=125
You might find it helpful to read the whole article.

"If the person with dementia owns their home, this may be counted as capital and may have to be sold to meet the cost of care home fees. If the home is not sold within a certain period of time, the local authority can put a legal charge on it and claim back what is owed when the house is sold. However, there is a period of 12 weeks' grace after the person decides to become a permanent resident at a home, during which the value of the house is not taken into account.
If the person does not wish to sell their home, or is having difficulty selling it, the local authority may offer a deferred payments scheme. This provides an interest-free loan to cover the amount needed for the care home fees, which is paid back when the person's home is eventually sold.
A person's home will not be taken into account as capital if it is occupied by:

• a husband, wife or unmarried partner
• a close relative under the age of 16, or over the age of 60
• a relative under the age of 60 who is disabled.

The local authority may also ignore the value of the house if it is the permanent home of a carer"

The situation regarding payment differs slightly from England to Wales & to Scotland.

Others with more knowledge of the position will probably be along soon.

[lspeakman]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Hi,
Wondered if you can help.
How would this work if one half of the property was willed to the grandchildren upon death which has happened and the other half?? - the property is unregistered as bought pre 60's - so no information available.
Thanks

Hi, Welcome and sorry to hear about your Mum in Law.
The following is an extract from http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/sc...documentID=125
You might find it helpful to read the whole article.

"If the person with dementia owns their home, this may be counted as capital and may have to be sold to meet the cost of care home fees. If the home is not sold within a certain period of time, the local authority can put a legal charge on it and claim back what is owed when the house is sold. However, there is a period of 12 weeks' grace after the person decides to become a permanent resident at a home, during which the value of the house is not taken into account.
If the person does not wish to sell their home, or is having difficulty selling it, the local authority may offer a deferred payments scheme. This provides an interest-free loan to cover the amount needed for the care home fees, which is paid back when the person's home is eventually sold.
A person's home will not be taken into account as capital if it is occupied by:

• a husband, wife or unmarried partner
• a close relative under the age of 16, or over the age of 60
• a relative under the age of 60 who is disabled.

The local authority may also ignore the value of the house if it is the permanent home of a carer"

The situation regarding payment differs slightly from England to Wales & to Scotland.

Others with more knowledge of the position will probably be along soon.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

The will has priority...
It is a lawful document.
If anything is left to anyone in a will.
Then the moment of death is the time that the contents of the will become enforceable.
The executor should have sorted this out, in fact he has a legal obligation to do just that.
The council cannot seize a property that is part owned, but they may put a charge on it, in the event of it being sold.
Who's name was on the deeds to the property at the time of making a will?
Did this name remain on the deeds on death?
Is your mother-in-law on the deeds as joint owner?
If she is, then she becomes full owner on the death of her spouse, unless a will has been made, to the contrary.
You really should see a probate solicitor for advice on what to do.

[des8]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

My condolences on your loss.
Does anyone live in the house now? or was your mother in law the sole occupier?
50% of the value of the property has been bequeathed to the grandchildren, but you don't know who the remaining 50% goes to?
Presumably it becomes part of the residual estate.

The Council will send the executor a bill for the outstanding care fees.
It is the duty of the executor to settle all outstanding debts from the estate before paying the beneficiaries.
So if the value in the house is required to pay the outstanding debts I regret that IMO it will probably have to be sold.

However if your husband wishes to retain the property in the family, is it possible to arrange a mortgage on the house, and use that to pay the council. It might need some nifty legwork to get around the formalities.

Just realised latest poster was not op! Confusing at my age when threads are hijacked

[stevemLS]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

OP - has your local Clinical Commissioning Group assessed eligibility for continuing healthcare funding?

(By no means all patients with dementia are eligible).

[Johnboy007]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

My condolences on your loss.
Does anyone live in the house now? or was your mother in law the sole occupier?
50% of the value of the property has been bequeathed to the grandchildren, but you don't know who the remaining 50% goes to?
Presumably it becomes part of the residual estate.

The Council will send the executor a bill for the outstanding care fees.
It is the duty of the executor to settle all outstanding debts from the estate before paying the beneficiaries.
So if the value in the house is required to pay the outstanding debts I regret that IMO it will probably have to be sold.

However if your husband wishes to retain the property in the family, is it possible to arrange a mortgage on the house, and use that to pay the council. It might need some nifty legwork to get around the formalities.

Just realised latest poster was not op! Confusing at my age when threads are hijacked

The Council will send the executor a bill for the outstanding care fees.
It is the duty of the executor to settle all outstanding debts from the estate before paying the beneficiaries.
Hi Des8,
I am not sure I entirely agree with you in this case.
Half of the house was evidently bequeathed to the grandchildren in a will.
Therefore, on the date of death, those grandchildren become the legal owners of half a share of the house.
On that date, the remaining spouse became owner of the other half share.
As she was not, and did not go into care at that time, the estate could not possibly be liable for any care fees that occur in the future.
And the executor does not have any authority to pay debts that the estate was not responsible for.
The council cannot force the grandchildren, or anyone acting on their behalf, to sell their half share, nor can they force the remaining spouse to sell her half of the house, as you can't really sell half a house.
So the logical thing is to place an order on her half of the property, pending any future sale.

[des8]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Hi John, I must admit to being confused as I thought post 4 was a continuation of the original post 1.
As often happens we only have a limited amount of info, so it is difficult to give any help.
Regarding ownership of the deceased's assets, the grandchildren do not become owners of 50% of the house at the date of death, but when distribution is made. Also a child under the age of 18 cannot own land or property in the UK: it has to be held in trust for them.
Until distribution the estate's assets are held in trust by the personal representative, who as you have pointed out elsewhere, must deal with the estate in a set order.
The estate's debts (which I THINK) include care costs will have to be settled from the estate before distribution to beneficiaries.
IF there is a surviving spouse the house is not included as it passes to the survivor. I believe this is regardless of the will and is k/a survivorship law. This is why I was querying who was the inheritor of the 50% not going to the grandchildren. From post 1 I had assumed both partners had passed on.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Hi John, I must admit to being confused as I thought post 4 was a continuation of the original post 1.
As often happens we only have a limited amount of info, so it is difficult to give any help.
Regarding ownership of the deceased's assets, the grandchildren do not become owners of 50% of the house at the date of death, but when distribution is made. Also a child under the age of 18 cannot own land or property in the UK: it has to be held in trust for them.
Until distribution the estate's assets are held in trust by the personal representative, who as you have pointed out elsewhere, must deal with the estate in a set order.
The estate's debts (which I THINK) include care costs will have to be settled from the estate before distribution to beneficiaries.
IF there is a surviving spouse the house is not included as it passes to the survivor. I believe this is regardless of the will and is k/a survivorship law. This is why I was querying who was the inheritor of the 50% not going to the grandchildren. From post 1 I had assumed both partners had passed on.

Hi Des,
You are spot on with regards to not having all the info.......
The point I was making was, that at the time of death the estate had X amount of assets.
The estate had X amount of debts.
After paying for the funeral and debts owed, the estate ended up with X amount.
According to the will which as you know the executor has a legal duty to administer, the house belongs to both the grandchildren and the remaining spouse.
Now we do not know the ages of the grandchildren, but according to the will they still own half the house, whether it is held in trust for them or not.
According to post number 1, it was Quoted: she has now to go in a care home which indicates to me that at the time of writing that post, The Mother-In-Law was not actually in the care home.
That being the case, the estate cannot possibly be responsible for paying any care home fees, as it is not the debt of the estate.
I believe the surviving spouse is the mother-in-law in question.....
So care home fees would not be applicable to the estates debt.
Confused?
You will be.........:der:

[des8]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Trouble is Poster 4 is not the same as Poster 1 and I think we may have two scenarios here, which whilst possibly similar, are not identical.
Post 1 was written in June, so when I read post 4 I thought Mum had gone into home and then passed on, and the original posters were concerned about care costs etc. On reflection care costs for 6 weeks or so would not have been a problem.
Post 4 is probably nothing to do with post 1.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Trouble is Poster 4 is not the same as Poster 1 and I think we may have two scenarios here, which whilst possibly similar, are not identical.
Post 1 was written in June, so when I read post 4 I thought Mum had gone into home and then passed on, and the original posters were concerned about care costs etc. On reflection care costs for 6 weeks or so would not have been a problem.
Post 4 is probably nothing to do with post 1.

Like I said Des,
Confused?
You will be.........

We also do not know, the date of any will that bequeaths half the house to the Grandchildren.....
Very confusing mate...

[Little-Nancy]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Sorry, this is a very late response to 'bella85' - I just wanted to describe my own experience of a similar situation, in case it might be of help.

My Mum was diagnosed with dementia in 2004. At first we managed to get by with me as her main carer, and additional help from Social Services staff. However, when her dementia progressed to the stage were her physical ability was as badly compromised as her mental capacity, it was (reluctantly) decided that she would be more appropriately cared for in a residential nursing home.
However, we (her family) didn't have to make any financial provision for this - ie: we weren't required to sell her former home in order to raise funds. Instead the NHS footed the bill for all costs during her stay in the nursing home. I don't know whether the situation has changed at all since then though? (NB: it was our local Social Services dept who negotiated with the NHS on our behalf as we were totally oblivious as to what to do in this situation.)

[enaid]

Re: Does the house have to be sold to pay for care

Very pleased to hear this Nancy, your mum was obviously put under 'Continuing Health Care' this is funded by the NHS. The different side to the coin is when the care is classed as 'Social Care' and this is means tested and and property can be made to be sold to cover the care.
As has been stated on tv this very morning Dementia patients 'face unfair care tax' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29126357.

I have recently lost my dad to this horrid illness and watched him lose all his muscle function over quite a short period, a blessing for him if i am honest although hard to say.
I scrapped every inch of the way to get him the care he was deserved and it only came in the last 2 weeks of his life,