Family member moved into a intestate property?

[redcisse09]

Hello everybody.

We have a situation were my Nanna passed away in January leaving her estate and an outstanding mortgage. She had prepared a will (signed and witnessed), a wishlist (just signed, but mentioned in the will), named her executor and so forth. Now the problem with the will was that despite it being signed and witnessed, is that it was not "sent off" to the solictors to be drawn up. The will was done via a "pack" sent by Irwin Mitchell ( a family member passed away prior this is why the will was never sent off).



My Nanna had no spouse and had 3 children, 2 Daughters (Daughter 1 and Daughter 2) and a Son. Now Daughter 1 (The oldest) is a money grabbing sack of S*** (more on that below). Daughter 2 (2nd oldest) Applied for probate to manage the estate and to pay the morgage ( bank said we could take over the morgage), However Daughter 1 had decided to see her solicitor and got a caveat placed on the probate (standard procedure I know). So at this point probate are investigating the validity of the will.

As mentioned my Nanna had a mortgage to pay on this house when she was alive and well but she could not pay it herself so her 2 daughters helped her but due to family issues the son was not included. (Daughter 1 Invested £18,000 in the property and Daughter 2 £2,000 FOR THE DEPOSIT THEIR IS NO WRITTEN TRUST ALL WAS DONE "VERBALLY") The mortgage was being payed between the two of them alternately) however a few weeks before my Nanna passed away Daughter 1 and my Nanna fell out, Daughter 1 said she is no longer paying the mortgage. She stopped paying. Leaving Daughter 2 to pay it all.

Naturally, Daughter 1 along with her solicitor applied to the land registry preventing the house being sold (if mortgage was ever finished) due to her £18,000 being in the house she claimed she is a beneficiary ( which by all means we want her to get her money back).


The Problem:

The Validity of the will is still being contested and a caveat is still in place. HOWEVER despite this, Daughter 1 has decided to change the locks on the house and MOVE IN. Despite Daughter 2 and the Son making it EXPLICITLY CLEAR THAT THEY DO NOT WANT HER IN THE PROPERTY in writing to her solicitor. we asked her solicitor is he knows that she has moved in, he did not answer.

Extra Info

Daughter 1 has assets; a villa abroad, a council house in the surrounding area and part of a house of her not yet divorced husband. She has also made no effort to contribute to the paying of funeral bills or other relevant costs

My question?

Can we get her out of my Nanny's "Home"? Surely we are currenty in intestate meaning she has no right to currently enter that property and change the locks? DAUGHTER 2 AND SON DO NOT WANT HER IN THERE.

Sorry if this is at all confusing I will clarify and info

Thanks in advance.

[Sapphire]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Hi and welcome to the site.

You say you have a solicitor on the go with sorting out the probate and so on, quite honestly I think you need to get yourselves another solicitor on this, explain everything and get his advice, I personally think that you do have a case to refuse Daughter 1 the right to live in the house.
Oh by the way now she's living there who is paying the mortgage ?

[Eloise01]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Gosh, she sounds awful. Especially compared to the mature and reasonable people that comprise the rest of the family. This "money grabbing sack of S***" - otherwise known as "Auntie" - has been quite ridiculous. She's put a substantial amount of her own money into a deposit on a house for her mother to live in, and then paid off half the mortgage on said property for an undisclosed period of time, trusting in her family being fair and reasonable rather than getting her investment tied down in legal documentation so that there could be no dispute at a later stage about who is entitled to what. She has the utter audacity to have other assets, so clearly bringing up this utterly irrelevant information is evidence of her being a "money grabbing sack of S***", because it certainly has no bearing on anything else here, although it does suggest that there is something of the green-eyed monster at play here because you seem to suggest that she shouldn't really care too much about her money because she has other assets. And I have no idea what business your family have writing to her solicitor to express your wishes, but it should come as no surprise that he didn't respond, because he's not her parent (so can't tell her what to do) and he is being paid to look after her interests and her wishes - not those of the rest of the family. Nor do I see any relevance in comments about who paid towards the funeral - perhaps, given the amount of money your aunt has invested in the estate already; and the possibility that she will, because of her own failure to lie that position up legally, never see a fraction of her money back, she has decided that she does not want to throw good money after bad. If the sharks are now circling for "their share" of the estate - regardless of what they may or may not have contributed to that estate - then why should she? The funeral costs can be reclaimed from the estate when it is finally released, and before it is distributed.

Regardless of whatever legal rights and wrongs there are here, there is one thing that is certain - carry on acting like a bunch of squabbling infants and the only money left will be in lawyers bank accounts. You say that you want to ensure that she gets her money back - which in fairness (whatever the legal position - the legal documents are not in evidence here) ought to be her £18,000, plus her mortgage payments, plus a proportionate share of the current equity based on her contributions. She obviously doesn't see that happening or any prospect of it happening, so rightly or wrongly she has taken direct action to secure her position. Possession may not be 9/10th of the law in reality - but it's a powerful position and one that it will cost you all if you want to drag this all out through courts and legal actions.

Rather than perpetuating a family squabble which is going to cost everyone dearly, the most sensible solution would be if everyone grew up and came to an agreement which was fair and equitable, within the limitations of what may or may not be possible depending upon the vailidity of the will. After that, if you don't want to speak to each other ever again, you can perpetuate the family row for as long as you like, but without throwing away whatever is left in the estate to lawyers who will be more than happy to charge you handsomely to do nothing more than coming to the same fair and equitable agreement.

[PlanB]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

if you don't want to speak to each other ever again, you can perpetuate the family row for as long as you like, but without throwing away whatever is left in the estate to lawyers who will be more than happy to charge you handsomely to do nothing more than coming to the same fair and equitable agreement.

Redcisse you should read *Bleak House*.

[enquirer]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

We have a situation were my Nanna ...

'Nanna' means different things to different people. What is your relationship to the deceased?

She had prepared a will (signed and witnessed) named her executor and so forth ...

If it was done properly, this is a perfectly legal Will. The deceased was not intestate.

Who was named as executor?

... a wishlist (just signed, but mentioned in the will) ...

This has no immediate legal status, although the executor should take note of it.

Now the problem with the will was that despite it being signed and witnessed, is that it was not "sent off" to the solictors to be drawn up.

If a solicitor redid it, then it would need to be signed and witnessed all over again.

The will was done via a "pack" sent by Irwin Mitchell ( a family member passed away prior this is why the will was never sent off).

I assume that you mean a commercially available Will Pack and that Irwin Mitchell were the chosen solicitors.

Daughter 2 (2nd oldest) Applied for probate to manage the estate and to pay the morgage ( bank said we could take over the morgage)

Why D2?

What does the Will actually say should happen to the property?

Who are the named beneficiaries?

As mentioned my Nanna had a mortgage to pay on this house when she was alive and well but she could not pay it herself so her 2 daughters helped her but due to family issues the son was not included. (Daughter 1 Invested £18,000 in the property and Daughter 2 £2,000FOR THE DEPOSIT THEIR IS NO WRITTEN TRUST ALL WAS DONE "VERBALLY")

No documents will make it very difficult. No paper trail at all? No cheques? No bank statements?

Daughter 1 has decided to change the locks on the house and MOVE IN.

If the estate has not been wound up, she can't. Effectively she is a squatter and the executor can move to evict her. Get a specialist solicitor on this NOW. Make sure to use the phrase 'time is of the essence'.

Despite Daughter 2 and the Son making it EXPLICITLY CLEAR THAT THEY DO NOT WANT HER IN THE PROPERTY in writing to her solicitor.

If he is aware that she is acting unlawfully and fails to advise her accordingly, he will be in breach of his professional standards.

Daughter 1 has assets; a villa abroad, a council house in the surrounding area and part of a house of her not yet divorced husband.

If she claims any benefits, consider reporting her for fraud. The council might also be interested to know that she has a council house that she doesn't live in.

She has also made no effort to contribute to the paying of funeral bills or other relevant costs.

A small detail, but one which might be useful when the court considers her credibility.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Eloise01, me calling her a "money grabbing sack of S**t" was just me venting, I'm incredibly upset about the whole situation. The family was getting along rather nicely when proposing plans for the mortgage and everyone was doing everything on "trust". The reason we don't speak to her now was because her son (Daughter 1 sons) brutally attacked my Nanna leaving her with life threatning injuries. Daughter 2 went and told the police despite My nanna telling her not to because "it was her grandson". Daughter 1 thought were just targetting it her and her son. (This is when she stopped paying the morgage).

The "extra info" was their just in case their was any use for it (not to instigate she in a money grabber). We do not currently have a solicitor because the "rest of the family (daughter 2 side) agreed that it was not in my nannas wishes to be tied in legal fees. Daughter 1 is the only one seeing a solicitor.

We only spoke to her solicitor because he sent us a later stating " My client, Daughter 1 has informed me that you (daughter 2 and son) have agreed to let daughter 1. stay in the property". We responded making it very clear we do not want her their and their has been no agreements.

We wanted to do this amicably (but it seems were past that) , but we just don't want her in the property whilst the will is being contested.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Nanna' means different things to different people. What is your relationship to the deceased?

I was her grandson, all the family (daughter 2 and son included) were very close to her, whilst daughter 1 and her son were "no longer talking to the rest of the family" (weeks prior to her death) my Nanna still loved them because they were "family".

Who was named as executor?

Her eldest Grandson.

This has no immediate legal status, although the executor should take note of it.

Fair enough.

I assume that you mean a commercially available Will Pack and that Irwin Mitchell were the chosen solicitors.

Yes, it was all filled in but not sent of to be "finalized" a cheque for payment was wrote out but never sent.

Why D2?

Daughter 1 was still not speaking to the family, son was happy for D2 to handle the estate.

What does the Will actually say should happen to the property?

It was to be "gifted" to the oldest grandson ( he was looking for a property to move in to with his partner). The WISH LIST went on to say that, if the property was sold D1 was to recieve her £18,000 back and the rest shared between her 3 children: D1, D2 and son.

No documents will make it very difficult. No paper trail at all? No cheques? No bank statements?

D2 has statements showing her transfer £2000 roughly for the deposit and paying her part of the mortgage I dont know about D1.

If the estate has not been wound up, she can't. Effectively she is a squatter and the executor can move to evict her. Get a specialist solicitor on this NOW. Make sure to use the phrase 'time is of the essence'.

We are still waiting to hear from probate. Meanwhile she has moved in and changed the locks, we know this for definite.

If she claims any benefits, consider reporting her for fraud. The council might also be interested to know that she has a council house that she doesn't live in.

Thankyou Enquirer

[CleverClogs]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

She had prepared a will (signed and witnessed),

As long as the witnesses were both present when she signed the will, were both present when each signed as a witness and neither is a beneficiary under the will, then the will should be perfectly valid.

The Validity of the will is still being contested

Why?

Unless the claim is that the old dear was gaga or that undue pressure was applied (mentally or physically) for her to dispose of her estate in a certain way, it would seem that D1 hasn't much hope of succeeding.

Is she in love with her lawyer? msl:

[Eloise01]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and this demonstrates that fact - nobody can predict the future and that is why clear legal instructions are necessary. It doesn't have to involve legal costs and solicitors, but it does have to be clearly drawn up, signed and witnessed. If all that is now left of family relationships is an inability to agree anything in a civilised manner NO MATTER WHO IS "AT FAULT" then I am afraid that PlanB's prediction of Bleak House may be the end result, and it'll be the lawyers who win. Is there nobody else in the family who can mediate this dispute? Because there'll be precious little left to have a dispute over if this goes on for any length of time.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

As long as the witnesses were both present when she signed the will, were both present when each signed as a witness and neither is a beneficiary under the will, then the will should be perfectly valid.


Why?

Unless the claim is that the old dear was gaga or that undue pressure was applied (mentally or physically) for her to dispose of her estate in a certain way, it would seem that D1 hasn't much hope of succeeding.

Is she in love with her lawyer? msl:

Well, a caveat was placed upon the estate by her solicitor which halted probate. Probate then got in touch asking for the will. So we sent them a photocopy, they got back to us asking for the original and the wish list, we happily obliged and sent it to them. They got back in touch later on saying its investigated and they won't send the originals back whilst the caveat is in place.

Her solicitor and D1 are constantly asking us to withdraw from probate and have asked for the master copy of the will (they already had a photo copy) but we explained we probate have it and wont give it back.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and this demonstrates that fact - nobody can predict the future and that is why clear legal instructions are necessary. It doesn't have to involve legal costs and solicitors, but it does have to be clearly drawn up, signed and witnessed. If all that is now left of family relationships is an inability to agree anything in a civilised manner NO MATTER WHO IS "AT FAULT" then I am afraid that PlanB's prediction of Bleak House may be the end result, and it'll be the lawyers who win. Is there nobody else in the family who can mediate this dispute? Because there'll be precious little left to have a dispute over if this goes on for any length of time.

Hindsight certainly is wonderful... We spoke to a solictor a few weeks ago in a free session and basically said, you've all cocked this right up, it was all done on "verbal trust" which has now comeback and ruined everything for you.

As for family who can mediate? Not a chance. We tried and failed, D1 went straight to her solicitor after my nanna passed away and now shes after everything but not prepared to give or help with the funeral., she's taken hold in the house (with all the possessions inside), My grandfathers ashes are also their. The property was in my nanna's name. She had no favourites and would not want one of her daughters ( who in my opinion, who is "well off" finacially), attempting to take everything, as it seems to be.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

On what grounds is the will being contested?

[Inca]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

So what you're saying is.....The eldest grandson has been 'gifted' the house and can live in it happily,,never having to sell it if he doesn't want to,,and D1 is meant to be happy about that,given that she has 18k and mortgage payments invested in it? Am I right? Cos if I am,,I wouldn't be too chuffed either if I was her.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

So what you're saying is.....The eldest grandson has been 'gifted' the house and can live in it happily,,never having to sell it if he doesn't want to,,and D1 is meant to be happy about that,given that she has 18k and mortgage payments invested in it? Am I right? Cos if I am,,I wouldn't be too chuffed either if I was her.

Again, this was done verbally. When the mortgage deposits were first being made everyone was "happy families" it was said he would be able to stay in the property ( or it could be rented out, or other grandchildren could move in). To cover the ongoing mortgage the son would pay "rent" to D1 and D2, and if the house was ever to be sold (grandson maybe didn't want it couldn't afford it) In the "wishlist" my Nanna stated she wanted D1 too certainly get her £18,000 back at minimum (along with any other property value).

Thank you everyone so far for the input.

[redcisse09]

Re: Family member moved into a intestate property?

On what grounds is the will being contested?

I don't know the exact reason ( I don't have the documentation to hand, but I will find out ASAP)

but essentially when D2 applied for probate a caveat was installed By D1+ solicitor (and still remains to this day ) Her solicitor keeps trying to talk to us asking for the will. If the will is "valid" like previous members have mentioned (and I think her solicitor belives it will be valid) we believe that her solicitor is trying to "haggle" with us so she gets the property because if the will is valid then she isnt getting the property.

I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm incredibly new to the Will side of the law and is the 1st family death I had to help deal with.

Apologies in advanced.