Fascinating estate case!

[Joseph2034]

Hi All,

I have a most intriguing case regarding probate. Please settle in and have yourself a read!

My father, a construction consultant veteran of the gulf region for 40 years (dubai,qatar, saudi etc) recently passed away from a sudden heart attack in the levant. We'll call him R.

R had residency permits in Qatar and UAE, and was over in Lebanon for work.

We cannot find R's will, and are unsure if he wrote it and if it still exists, so we'll assume it doesnt.

R is separated from his wife (my mother), but not divorced, so the marriage is technically still in effect. She is in New Zealand and not interested in funds from the estate.

The wife is willing to sign a PA16 or similar form to relinquish administrative rights.

R has a house in Edinburgh, Scotland worth 200k that was vacant, but used for all his UK letters and correspondence. He also has land in Northern ireland, worth maybe 50k total.

He also has 50k or so of assets in england (whiskey).

Total value of the estate in the UK is under 500K.

I am currently in Edinburgh and my older brother is in Australia. Money is tight until we can get some assets liquidated so we are trying to get letters of administration beforehand.

Question:

- Where should we (my older brother and I) apply for probate or letters of administration? It seems it is easier in england or NI than in Scotland. The scottish govt website is not helpful.
- Are there any useful legal textbooks I could refer to that cover this subject?

Thanks!

[DE DOGS]

I went through this, application to the High Court for a Presumption of a Death certificate, which then allows you a Death Certificate to make a claim. Hope I have this right in your case, as it differs from my problem.

[echat11]

Just posted for info -

ttps://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk...these%20assets.

https://www.baker-law.co.uk/site/blo...led-outside-uk

[sederunt]

It's all a matter of domicile. Domicile might be declared in a will, but in this case no will. Domicile might equate to where a person was ordinarily resident - with the local law regulating inheritance.


Let's say R was domiciled in a foreign country. Then an application for confirmation in Scotland will only apply to estate in Scotland. And entitlement to be granted confirmation and to the estate will depend on the law of the foreign country.


Let's say R was domiciled in Scotland, then wife or children or both can apply for Confirmation for whole of UK estate. But a bond of caution will be necessary due to intestacy, and insurance cautioner will impose compulsory use of solicitor.

[Joseph2034]

Hey guys, thanks for the input

"I went through this, application to the High Court for a Presumption of a Death certificate, which then allows you a Death Certificate to make a claim. Hope I have this right in your case, as it differs from my problem"

We have a death certificate, translated as well, that was issued in lebanon.

I have all birth certificates and marriage certs, thank god. I already handled the repatriation of the casket from lebanon, that was challenging! Their government works one day a week!

"It's all a matter of domicile. Domicile might be declared in a will, but in this case no will. Domicile might equate to where a person was ordinarily resident - with the local law regulating inheritance.
Let's say R was domiciled in a foreign country. Then an application for confirmation in Scotland will only apply to estate in Scotland. And entitlement to be granted confirmation and to the estate will depend on the law of the foreign country.
Let's say R was domiciled in Scotland, then wife or children or both can apply for Confirmation for whole of UK estate. But a bond of caution will be necessary due to intestacy, and insurance cautioner will impose compulsory use of solicitor."

R was not domiciled in the UK and never paid any tax here. The assets are in the UK.

From my research, it seems to me like we need to apply for the letters of admin in the places where they are. The scottish property will require scottish "confirmation" - the scottish govt website is very helpful (not! haha), the england assets english letters of admin etc.

The most liquid assets are in England and that seems to be the easiest place to start.

I'll post again when I get more clarification.

[echat11]

I don't think it is as straightforward as that, posted for info: https://worldwidelawyers.co.uk/forei...ith-uk-assets/

[sederunt]

With a domicile outside the UK, it looks like the ‘executor’ may first require to submit form IHT 400 to HMRC because the UK estate seems not to be an excepted estate.

If the Edinburgh house was fully owned by R, then Confirmation to the Scottish estate is necessary. Where domiciled outside of Scotland, this is by submitting form C1 to Commissariot at Edinburgh. For the purposes of the Confirmation, the right of the ‘executor’ to administer the estate by the laws of the country of domicile must be proved - either by the provision of probate etc from a court of the country of domicile, or by the opinion of a person versed in the laws of the country of the person’s domicile.

[Joseph2034]

"I don't think it is as straightforward as that, posted for info: https://worldwidelawyers.co.uk/forei...ith-uk-assets/"
I looked at that link thanks. W There aren't the funds for a lawyer as I'm a student still looking for employment. R was not domiciled in any way where he was deceased - it wasnt a gulf country and wasn't a commonwealth or european country. He was on a temporary visa. He's made it tough huh?

"With a domicile outside the UK, it looks like the ‘executor’ may first require to submit form IHT 400 to HMRC because the UK estate seems not to be an excepted estate."

In regards to domicile, since the deceased travelled between the gulf states often, he didn't have a permanent address, and possessed bank accounts in various countries. These states operate under sharia law - it was be a nightmare to do anything in these courts, due to the language barrier and high costs of gulf lawyers. I have been reading https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...nual/ihtm06021 so I'll look into this further RE tax.

We are getting the first wife to sign a PA12 form to nominate myself and one of the half brothers as executors over the UK assets. (PA12: Power of attorney (Intestate) A person appointed to act as the representative of the person entitled to the estate.)

She's over in NZ so it'll take some time to get those forms back; then we're going to start the probate process with that document.

The house in edinburgh is on the backburner for the time being because the scottish govt guidance for confirmation is very unclear. But I'll keep that in mind Sederunt, thanks!

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It is unclear if R's foreign domicile effects the inheritance tax exemption. This is probably the most serious question.

R had 220k of investment liquor in england. He had 250k property in edinburgh. There is no will.

This brings the estate value up to 470k, above the 325k nil rate. However these is a futher exemption if the house passes on to direct descendents under intestacy rules, which in this case is the wife and sons.

I have no reason to believe that his foreign domicile would impact this further property IHT tax exemption? Does anyone have anything to add to that?

[sederunt]

Are you sure that you have bottomed out domicile. Someone who lived abroad can have a domicile in the UK, for example domicile can be the place where you intend to return to.

Letters of administration in England and Wales will not allow administration of the full UK estate. LOA only gives title to Scottish estate where a deceased was resident in England and Wales.