Appearance made

[Execben]

Hi, I am looking for assistance please.

I am executor and main beneficiary of a will.
Myself and other side using solicitors.

For 18 months (approx) one disgruntled family member has placed/extended caveat numerous times. Using undue influence then capacity as reason.

From the outset, I had provided estate accounts (via the probate solicitor), access to medical records, bank statements, pushed the Larke Vs Nugus response - in order to be transparent so the other side could made a decision in relation to pursuing this case (basically if went to trial the judge would see that we have been patient and forthcoming with data)

They were not satisfied with any of the above (although nothing untoward) - basically not happy with the information because it would not support their case.

I took another approach and sent a defence of the will along with supporting evidence from various sources e.g. Larke Vs Nugus, medical records etc - very comprehensive document that I created myself and was proof read at great cost by my solicitors (specialise in contentious probate)..we left it for a month then served a Warning - today they make an appearance so Caveat is now permanent!

To date, £1,000s spent and the other side have not sent a letter of claim?! We have requested this on numerous times + supporting evidence.

I am looking to take the matter to court but do this myself (have no choice for court - other side not made any indication of what they want so mediation not an option) - must be using insurance to cover expenses.

Does anybody know of what forms need to be filled in and the actual procedure?

Thanks in advance!

[twohoots]

Hi, I am looking for assistance please.

I am executor and main beneficiary of a will.
Myself and other side using solicitors.

For 18 months (approx) one disgruntled family member has placed/extended caveat numerous times. Using undue influence then capacity as reason.

From the outset, I had provided estate accounts (via the probate solicitor), access to medical records, bank statements, pushed the Larke Vs Nugus response - in order to be transparent so the other side could made a decision in relation to pursuing this case (basically if went to trial the judge would see that we have been patient and forthcoming with data)

They were not satisfied with any of the above (although nothing untoward) - basically not happy with the information because it would not support their case.

I took another approach and sent a defence of the will along with supporting evidence from various sources e.g. Larke Vs Nugus, medical records etc - very comprehensive document that I created myself and was proof read at great cost by my solicitors (specialise in contentious probate)..we left it for a month then served a Warning - today they make an appearance so Caveat is now permanent!

To date, £1,000s spent and the other side have not sent a letter of claim?! We have requested this on numerous times + supporting evidence.

I am looking to take the matter to court but do this myself (have no choice for court - other side not made any indication of what they want so mediation not an option) - must be using insurance to cover expenses.

Does anybody know of what forms need to be filled in and the actual procedure?

Thanks in advance!

I am so sad to read this as I am in a similar situation. It seems to me that the caveator holds all the cards. How can it be right for them to be able to keep renewing caveats but not giving any reasons for doing so? The thing I DON’T want to do is involve solicitors and fork out loads of money but no doubt, one day it will come to that. I feel for you!

[Execben]

Yep - I am doing things the other way around = paid solicitor for the easy part but looking to deal with the hard part myself!

I have written a pretty structured defence to a case that has not been put to me?!

The Caveator does hold the power. I am just hoping the next stage in front of a judge (pre trial) would show that I have conducted myself properly - they wanted 5 things, I gave 10 etc. They have led to the costs racking up unnecessarily + court.

I am looking at a judge to basically push them to make their case by a particular date or throw the case out (a case that has not been put to me)!?

Really weird legal position and expensive !

[twohoots]

Yep - I am doing things the other way around = paid solicitor for the easy part but looking to deal with the hard part myself!

I have written a pretty structured defence to a case that has not been put to me?!

The Caveator does hold the power. I am just hoping the next stage in front of a judge (pre trial) would show that I have conducted myself properly - they wanted 5 things, I gave 10 etc. They have led to the costs racking up unnecessarily + court.

I am looking at a judge to basically push them to make their case by a particular date or throw the case out (a case that has not been put to me)!?

Really weird legal position and expensive !

I just had to edit my post as it should have read I DON’T want to involve solicitors and all that expense.

[Hagalout]

The system appears to be ridiculously in favour of the Caveator in my view, One man put 3 caveats in various family names against my probate application 2 of them without the knowledge of the other named persons, he is guilty of fraud if nothing else. He entered appearances against two of them ( his and his daughters) after dispensing with the services of his solicitor, strangely enough. When he reappointed his solicitor they wanted to remove them by mutual consent even though by this time I am over £8000 pounds worse off, my opinion and that of my solicitor is that he is guilty of abuse of process, especially as he openly admits that he seeks benefit from a totally different estate( my mother's partner, his grandfather) we are now a further 2 years and another £5000 down the line and still waiting for the probate registrar to deal with it. I have posted on here previously with more detail if you wish to read my posts. I understand why the experts on here advise us to ask our solicitors but sometimes it is good to get a bit of reassurance or a different view or simply talk about it to let off steam. Good luck. I wish you all the best.

[twohoots]

The system appears to be ridiculously in favour of the Caveator in my view, One man put 3 caveats in various family names against my probate application 2 of them without the knowledge of the other named persons, he is guilty of fraud if nothing else. He entered appearances against two of them ( his and his daughters) after dispensing with the services of his solicitor, strangely enough. When he reappointed his solicitor they wanted to remove them by mutual consent even though by this time I am over £8000 pounds worse off, my opinion and that of my solicitor is that he is guilty of abuse of process, especially as he openly admits that he seeks benefit from a totally different estate( my mother's partner, his grandfather) we are now a further 2 years and another £5000 down the line and still waiting for the probate registrar to deal with it. I have posted on here previously with more detail if you wish to read my posts. I understand why the experts on here advise us to ask our solicitors but sometimes it is good to get a bit of reassurance or a different view or simply talk about it to let off steam. Good luck. I wish you all the best.

Hello hagalout. I haven’t met anybody yet (apart from on here) who have ever heard about caveats and they are all surprised that somebody can do this and stop the probate process without giving any reason. If the Probate Office just said a caveat had been raised and why, then that would clarify things. They tell you to write to the caveator in the first instance but you don’t really have enough details to explain yourself and then if they don’t reply, you are no further forward.

[Hagalout]

Yes I'm pretty sure that most of us have never heard of a Caveat till we get the notice that we have had one applied against our probate application. And when an Appearance is entered in reply to the warning, very little info is required on the form, and I'm almost certain it is classes as an Affadavit (although I could be wrong) so any untruths on there should be dealt with more severely, in my case they were barefaced lies. I can appreciate when correctly used there is a case for them but it seems the system can be abused all too easily, leaving innocent parties thousands of pounds out of pocket.

[des8]

Where the appearance is lodged but the caveator appears to have no intention of issuing proceedings and simply wishes to cause delay one course of action is to make application to the Registry for a “put up and shut up order” ie that the caveator do issue proceedings within a short period of time or the caveat will cease to have effect.
The expensive course following an appearance it to issue a court summons for directions. This may include a request for the court to decide whether or not the caveat is justified and whether the caveator should issue court proceedings for the dispute to be resolved. A court hearing will then be scheduled when a judge will decide how the dispute should be determined.
This will involve court action and raises the possibility of a costs order being made against the parties. The risk of an adverse costs order is a very real, especially as legal costs in contentious probate disputes can quickly escalate .Best to attempt to settle outside court
.
If you really can't come to an agreement I think the form you need to start the ball rolling is form CH1 (https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ent-directions)

The rules are here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...rticle/44/made

Good luck with that!

The reason for always advising posters to at least have a conversation with a professional is that we would hate to inadvertently misdirect posters who then receive an adverse costs order.
These scenarios are never as straightforward as posted, and there are risks attached to whichever course is chosen.
You must keep in mind that posters on here are not giving legal advice, and most often are not legally trained.

[Hagalout]

Thank You Des, as stated previously in my case the Caveator/s had it explained in no uncertain terms before they entered any appearance that they had no claim whatsoever against the estate where they had entered caveats and if they felt that they had a claim against the their grandfather's estate, then they should take it up with a person of interest regarding that estate. They still went ahead and entered an appearance leaving me no alternative than to seek advice from barristers etc. Then 12 months later the caveators reappointed their solicitor and low and behold they then wanted to remove the caveat by mutual consent. That 12 months cost me a further £5000 so how can that be right?

[Execben]

Where the appearance is lodged but the caveator appears to have no intention of issuing proceedings and simply wishes to cause delay one course of action is to make application to the Registry for a “put up and shut up order” ie that the caveator do issue proceedings within a short period of time or the caveat will cease to have effect.
The expensive course following an appearance it to issue a court summons for directions. This may include a request for the court to decide whether or not the caveat is justified and whether the caveator should issue court proceedings for the dispute to be resolved. A court hearing will then be scheduled when a judge will decide how the dispute should be determined.
This will involve court action and raises the possibility of a costs order being made against the parties. The risk of an adverse costs order is a very real, especially as legal costs in contentious probate disputes can quickly escalate .Best to attempt to settle outside court
.
If you really can't come to an agreement I think the form you need to start the ball rolling is form CH1 (https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ent-directions)

The rules are here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...rticle/44/made

Good luck with that!

The reason for always advising posters to at least have a conversation with a professional is that we would hate to inadvertently misdirect posters who then receive an adverse costs order.
These scenarios are never as straightforward as posted, and there are risks attached to whichever course is chosen.
You must keep in mind that posters on here are not giving legal advice, and most often are not legally trained.

Thank you very much - I am sure that I will be back for further advice + update with my situation.
I understand the cost implication but 18-24 months = no claim made + no evidence. I have racked up costs and will continue to rack up costs based on the caveator conduct.. I am sure a Judge will look at this and see how forthcoming we have been Vs the lack of co-operation from the other side (showing why costs are why they are)

The form looks like fun!?

[des8]

My personal opinion is that the system needs revision (but I have no suggestions to make as to how!)

Until relatively recently the processes would rarely be initiated by lay persons but the internet has opened up a whole new world, and to some extent those processes are being subverted.
Some of those who feel aggrieved whether justly or not go straight to entering a caveat which should only be used to allow time to gather evidence
supporting a challenge to the will's validity or to the executor.
Often they do this thinking the possible costs involved will bring about a settlement in their favour, under the mistaken impression that any costs are bound to be paid by the estate.
If they are aggrieved because their legacy is either non existent or smaller than expected, their proper course of action is a claim under The Inheritance (Provision for Family or Dependants) Act 1975

[Execben]

The system appears to be ridiculously in favour of the Caveator in my view, One man put 3 caveats in various family names against my probate application 2 of them without the knowledge of the other named persons, he is guilty of fraud if nothing else. He entered appearances against two of them ( his and his daughters) after dispensing with the services of his solicitor, strangely enough. When he reappointed his solicitor they wanted to remove them by mutual consent even though by this time I am over £8000 pounds worse off, my opinion and that of my solicitor is that he is guilty of abuse of process, especially as he openly admits that he seeks benefit from a totally different estate( my mother's partner, his grandfather) we are now a further 2 years and another £5000 down the line and still waiting for the probate registrar to deal with it. I have posted on here previously with more detail if you wish to read my posts. I understand why the experts on here advise us to ask our solicitors but sometimes it is good to get a bit of reassurance or a different view or simply talk about it to let off steam. Good luck. I wish you all the best.

I really feel sorry for you in this situation, the system is ridiculously flawed - my costs are similar to yours. I hope things go in your favour.

It is really ridiculous, in most cases a solicitor draws up a will but when the will is questioned it falls to beneficiary to fight/pay etc...surely the solicitor making the will is the one who should be questioned (they have to assess capacity + make sure no coercion) .. beneficiary probably didn't know what was in the will ! If the will was invalid the solicitor making the will got paid for something that was worthless (crazy!)

[Hagalout]

Thanks, in my case I am the executor and sole beneficiary, the caveators wouldn't inherit anything even under intestacy rules, it has all been done just to cost me money, there can't be any other reason, it's crazy if they get away with it.

[twohoots]

Thanks, in my case I am the executor and sole beneficiary, the caveators wouldn't inherit anything even under intestacy rules, it has all been done just to cost me money, there can't be any other reason, it's crazy if they get away with it.

It IS crazy and very unfair. my case is similar.
The system does need a complete overhaul because whatever way I look at it, it cannot be right that a person can do this and give the executor no reason why they are doing so. The probate Office won’t tell you either. If you don’t know what grounds they have done this on, you have nothing to argue with.

[twohoots]

My personal opinion is that the system needs revision (but I have no suggestions to make as to how!)

Until relatively recently the processes would rarely be initiated by lay persons but the internet has opened up a whole new world, and to some extent those processes are being subverted.
Some of those who feel aggrieved whether justly or not go straight to entering a caveat which should only be used to allow time to gather evidence
supporting a challenge to the will's validity or to the executor.
Often they do this thinking the possible costs involved will bring about a settlement in their favour, under the mistaken impression that any costs are bound to be paid by the estate.
If they are aggrieved because their legacy is either non existent or smaller than expected, their proper course of action is a claim under The Inheritance (Provision for Family or Dependants) Act 1975

Quite right.