Lord of The Rings

[Mercury45]

Hi, my mom passed away just under a year ago and at her Funeral I was given and signed for her 4 Rings, 2 wedding,engagement,eternity.
my Aunt is Executor of the Will, I am a residue beneficiary, the house has been sold and awaiting sign off of the acccounts by the Executor after asking a million questions regards to my brother, residue beneficiary , about money, there’s only about £130,000. My sister is also a residue beneficiary.
i received letters asking for the whereabouts of “jewellery, photos, personal effects”in August, I replied any personal items were taken with the full knowledge and consent of the Executor. I was the only beneficiary to be asked this. In October I was asked about “certain items” , again I responded please clarify what these are, no reply, I closed the matter with a letter after giving 14 days notice. I not heard anything until Today!
I have asked the Solicitor when the estate will be concluded and in his reply has asked if I have any objection to delivering my Moms four rings to our offices in order for our client to distribute the same?
Where do I now stand with this specific request, never asked before? What if I haven’t got the rings anymore?
the Will states Personal Chattels - I give to my Trustees all my personal chattels and request as far as possible to distribute the same.
there are 3 residue beneficiaries, costs are already well over £10,000 for an estate worth only £140,000.
where do I stand, please advise

[Peridot]

Hi Mercury45,
Sorry to hear of the loss of your mom. I assume the rings were not left in the Will but formed part of your mom's personal possessions?

So do you still have the rings? Were they ever valued? Technically all personal items have been left to the executor (trustee) to distribute. This may be in line with wishes that your mom indicated to her sister. Do you know whether your mom had any thoughts on who should receive personal items if they wanted them?

Do you know whether the other beneficiaries would want them/one?Unless your mom left guidance as to who has what, if they want it, the executor is in a bit of a difficult position as they are responsible for distributing the estate as far as they can according to your mother's wishes. If she didn't give any indication what those wishes were then it is understandably difficult to make any final decision.

Of course the whole estate has to be valued for inheritance tax and probate, so if the rings had any value they should have been included in the estate values. If they were valuable and n

o-one else wanted them,

then in the usual course of things the value of the items could be deducted from any inheritance due, to reflect that you have had that value already. If they are of little value then although a nominal amount should be included in the estate values then it would seem sensible that if any of those close to your mom wished to keep something as a keepsake, this could hopefully be agreed between the beneficiaries and family. If no agreement can be reached then the executor should be responsible for disposing of any items not agreed.

Slightly different with photos as these would generally be of sentimental value only. However it would seem only fair if a number of family wanted some photos that they be divided and again if agreement can't be reached then it should really be up to the executor to make the final decision.

I would suggest that this is not something the solicitor needs to be involved in to any great degree so shouldn't push costs up significantly, unless it is preventing the estate valuation, for example. Maybe ask your aunt if your mom had prepared a letter of wishes indicating who she wanted to have certain items. If this is the case then although not legally binding on the executor ,there is a strong moral obligation for them to carry out your mom's wishes. If there was not letter of wishes left for the executor, then it is their responsibility to gather in and value the estate before distributing it. If an agreement can't be reached then it would seem no-one should have them and they would then need to be disposed of or sold and the proceeds distributed equally to the residuary beneficiaries.

If you no longer have the items then depending on the values this amount may justifiably be deducted from any inheritance due to you.

[Mercury45]

Hi, thanks for the response.
At the Funeral Directors trying to arrange, my Sister said she wanted 2 of my moms rings as she had 2 daughters, this was not agreeable with my brother and I, she subsequently walked out and had nothing else to do with the funeral and have not spoken since. The Executor will not speak to us only through the Solicitor, hence the huge cost so far. There were no wishes made by my mom as to who should have what items. No valuation of the rings ever made, £200 at the most.No inventory of the house was ever made by the Executor, only changing the locks some 5 months after my mom had passed away and most things had been either taken by my brother or sister, I’m not disputing any of that. It’s been a complete mess from the start and now hoping to reach the end, this has been asked.
If I no longer have the rings do I have to say what I did with them, could I get into any trouble ? I am happy for the amount to be deducted from my share, but with no valuation ever made how is this done?
thank you

[Peridot]

Oh dear, so sad how relations deteriorate following a family death.
Not having an inventory done is not the end of the world to be honest. The majority of us although pay good money for all the things in our houses find they are worth diddly on resale. Items of antique furniture, jewellery, art work and fashionable furniture should be valued as these will have value that in the context of your mom's Will is up to the executor to decide what to do with. As I mentioned above if no-one can agree then it would not be unreasonable for the executor to dispose of everything and just divide whatever sum they got for personal possessions.

Did your brother and sister have items from the property too? If you are adamant that your nieces shouldn't receive any of the rings then this turns into a bit of a moral dilemma really. Of course everyone is hurting after loosing your mom and everyone deals with it in different ways. It is a shame an agreement can't be reached.

If you no longer have the rings and you received money for them then technically that money should be passed to the estate to be distributed with the rest of the estate money. As you say without a valuation it is difficult to say what would happen. The executor could sue you for the sum but would they if the sum is negligible? Will not dealing with this result in the whole family losing touch and is that something that you can all live with? Do you and your brother have children who may inherit the rings at some point? What about you and your brother receiving one of the eternity and engagement rings each and the nieces receiving a wedding band each? Are there photos of the rings that could be used for valuation purposes then you could offer for the sum to be deducted from your share? Is there any negotiation to be had over other items your sister and brother have had from the property?

It is tricky and ultimately up to the executor. Depending on the values of items the siblings have removed will decide whether any action is taken I would suspect and if the tax position is unchanged even including the items it is doubtful any further action would be encouraged by the lawyers.

I'm not sure if you would be able to come to an agreement, it seems a shame if you can't, but then I don't know what has happened in the past. Apologies I'm not giving you any answers but I would suggest this is far more a moral dilemma at this stage.

[Mercury45]

Thank you for your response.
all communication has broken down between my sister, the Executor will only communicate through the Solicitor, escalating cost with every letter, 32 letters upto today.
Not received any money for the rings, no photos exist, value negligible, more sentimental. My brother has no children. I have daughter that would of been nice to pass ring to.
yes they both had things and took them, parents wedding album my sister took without asking. As you say not much value in any of it more sentimental. My brother will not return anything if my sister does not, that’s never going to happen. The Executor is being totally impartial to my sister, this is where it’s coming from.
feels like blackmail now we’re near to settling and distribution.
what if I asked for items to be returned that they had took?
If they are all returned how can I be sure they will be distributed fairly.
can I ask for the value to be taken against my share.?

[Mercury45]

Hi, anyone have a response to my last post please?

[Peridot]

The problem you have is by standing this out and making everyone declare what items they had and then dividing them again if necessary is going to increase your costs if everything is having to go though the solicitor. In turn this reduces the residue available to be distributed.

Is it worth a last email to sister, brother and executor maybe with an olive branch of sorts? Maybe you have a ring for your daughter and your sister has the others or flag what other items your siblings have had? Or offer the money for the rings although I suspect this wouldn't be acceptable for them. It appears to be about the rings themselves.

It is really difficult for you and without incurring potentially large costs and the ultimate breakdown in relations even further with your siblings there is not much you can do other than walk away or try and negotiate between yourselves how things should be divided.

[Mercury45]

Hi, thank you for the advice,
what if I haven’t got the rings anymore?
what re-course does the Executor have, no valuation was ever done and it’s only yesterday I was asked about them specifically.

[Peridot]

As I mentioned above, if you don't have them what can they do? Unless they believe them to be worth a significant amount it may not be worth pursuing. The other point is the executor is responsible for the estate and should have secured the property. Would the police be interested if they claimed theft? Probably not if the value is so low, it appears this is a family issue.

It is a moral dilemma that only you can make the decision on. I would always say try and deal with this by negotiating but you know the personalities, being in the situation.

Sorry I can't really offer anything else, there may be others who have experience of similar situations but ultimately it would come down to the cost of chasing this, family relations going forward and whether the Executor wishes to push this irrespective of cost to the estate. A probate lawyer would probably recommend leaving it but they will of course act on their client's instructions.

[Mercury45]

Thank you,
i see, because my mom and dad passed away within 4 months of each other last year, thier ashes were scattered on a beach where they used to holiday for over 40 years and the rings were scattered also, so they could be eternally together after 60 years of marriage, so you can see the situation, can’t exactly go and retrieve them. Not much value in them £200-£300, but again no pictures or valuation.
Executor did not secure any property or personal belongings for 5 months and it was a bit of a free for all, most items had been removed/disposed of by then from the house.
the Executor failed to make any value of the house/garden contents, I know not much value in thier anyway.

i feel like its almost Blackmail now we’re at the end asking about rings that nobody has asked for specifically before.
this is really stressful and anxiety levels very high as thought we were doing the right thing.
me and my brother decided,my sister was not involved.

[Peridot]

If you don't have the rings and they've been scattered with the ashes, have you not said that to the family/executor?

[Mercury45]

No, only me and my brother know , nobody ever asked until now, as with mom and dads ashes it was left to me and my brother, no one else was bothered. So we decided that’s what we would do.

[Peridot]

I would suggest if they no longer are in you possession it would be sensible to let the executor/solicitor know this. There will probably be some fall out with family as a result but you know that already I suspect. It is really tough for everyone losing parents and not made any easier when family arguments happen too. Hopefully this will settle down eventually for you all.